Wednesday, August 13, 2008
McCain's Planes
From what I can gather, folks, Senator McCain, while a member of the Air Force, was involved in five incidents in which the plane he was the pilot in was crippled. Two of these incidents involved Mr. McCain himself crashing the planes. One of the other incidents was obviously him being shot down in Vietnam. The fourth incident involved the plane that he was in "flaming out" and him having to parachute out of it. As for the fifth incident, Mr. McCain was simply waiting to take off and, yes, WHILE he was waiting, the craft that he was the pilot in was accidentally hit by a missile. Hardly a "crash", in other words.............................................So, there you have it. Those are the five incidents that I could find. Just how many of those are McCain's own fault, I don't know, I guess that that depends on just how much of a jack-booted, venom-spewing, mentally-challenged lunatic/thug you are. If you happen to be high on that particular metric, then, yes, they're all frigging McCain's doing. If, however, you're more of a fair-minded citizen (not a lot of THOSE on the Internet, huh?), you'd probably say that just two of them were - if in fact you spent any time on it at all, for Christ!
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60 comments:
So your making the case that a guy who loses 4 planes, 3 crashes, once shot down and once blown up by a rocket is a GOOD pilot.........GOOD LUCK MAKING THAT CASE........would you trust this guy with ANOTHER multi million dollar PLANE??????
Answer me this genius if you were an insurance compant and some guy crashed and totalled 5 million dollar vehicles lets say Ferrarri's and Roll Royces........would you insure this idiot again or would you say he is a bad risk and a poor driver and tell him to hit the road.
It appears your saying a guy who lost 5 planes is a GOOD pilot............by your logic Jeffrey Dahmer and Saddam Hussein werent really bad guys they were just "misunderstood".......................BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
Nicholas:
Why do you have to CONSISTENTLY bring the discussion to the gutter???
You claim Will is the hateful one but YOU are doing all the name calling, insulting, etc.
What does this add to the discussion? Present your facts/research and disagree if you want. I thought we Democrats want Obama elected in manner consistent with fairness, dignity, etc.. Among other things, we despise the tactics that the right wing has employed over the last 8 years...By engaging in this Sophmoric behavior, YOU are just following the very same smear tactics.
It's easy to insult someone hiding behind your computer. It hard to stand on principle even if goes against your world view...Can't you see BOTH liberals and conservatives get it wrong sometimes. By getting the facts straight, it does not make us weaker, rather it makes us stronger.
Why is it so hard to debate in civil manner?? If you don't like Will's Blog, go post elsewhere where only one point of view is accepted. But if you do this what will you learn?
I WANT hear divergent viewpoints. Often ideas transform into something better if we take the time to LISTEN. Hegel, Socrates and others have employed Dialectic to advance the discussion no matter what the topic. You are angry Son. You need to lighten up.
Up until now, I have watched from the sidelines. Can't believe how ugly its become. Is this how you want the world to run?? THINK ABOUT IT....please.
I don't know if he's a good pilot or not, Mike. I'm not an aviation/military expert. I know that he was cleared of responsibility in the flame-out and, seriously, how could the tarmac thing be his fault? He wasn't even in the air, for Christ. And the getting shot down was his fault? God, by that logic, every person killed or wounded is to blame for it, I guess. Look, Mike, McCain is a lousy candidate this time out and he's run a shitty campaign. You don't really need to go down this route. And, besides, the moderates and independents hate it. Best not to alienate them.
John McCain, Jeffrey Dahmer, and Saddam Hussein? Love your metaphors, Mike. Love 'em.
Marcus said...
Nicholas:
Why do you have to CONSISTENTLY bring the discussion to the gutter???
You claim Will is the hateful one but YOU are doing all the name calling, insulting, etc.
What does this add to the discussion? Present your facts/research and disagree if you want. I thought we Democrats want Obama elected in manner consistent with fairness, dignity, etc.. Among other things, we despise the tactics that the right wing has employed over the last 8 years...By engaging in this Sophmoric behavior, YOU are just following the very same smear tactics.
It's easy to insult someone hiding behind your computer. It hard to stand on principle even if goes against your world view...Can't you see BOTH liberals and conservatives get it wrong sometimes. By getting the facts straight, it does not make us weaker, rather it makes us stronger.
Why is it so hard to debate in civil manner?? If you don't like Will's Blog, go post elsewhere where only one point of view is accepted. But if you do this what will you learn?
I WANT hear divergent viewpoints. Often ideas transform into something better if we take the time to LISTEN. Hegel, Socrates and others have employed Dialectic to advance the discussion no matter what the topic. You are angry Son. You need to lighten up.
Up until now, I have watched from the sidelines. Can't believe how ugly its become. Is this how you want the world to run?? THINK ABOUT IT....please."
Well put Marcus, there is another jerk JUST like Nicholas that has been plaguing Lydia Cornell's site for the last 3 years........just like this Nicholas troll he doesnt debate real and intelligent issues or add to the discussion in any way, all he does is attack people personally, deflect, derail and try to take the conversation down to the gutter........this troll has been told numerous times he is unwelcome but still he persists in insulting regular posters.
prisoners" Hart said...
I don't know if he's a good pilot or not, Mike. I'm not an aviation/military expert."
Well i NEVER said whether it was or wasnt his fault but would you think a reasonable person would consider a guy who lost 5 planes a good pilot, i'm not smearing him personally or degrading his service to his country.........just putting facts out there for people to form an opinion on.........after all McSame is the one CLAIMING to be the ONLY one who knows how to win wars and a war hero and i think his since HE made the issue front and center its only fair to examine his record as a pilot and his bottom of his class educational record.
BTW Will.........i asked you a favor in a previous thread.
The fact that he's exploiting his military experience, THAT is actually a fair criticism. To bring up the "flame-out"....and him accidently being hit on the tarmac,though, that I would have left out. It sounds a little gratuitous. And, then, of course, the other side will throw the Wright/Farrahkan shit back at you. It never ends.
Mike:
Up until now, I get my news/debate fix at Media Matter and Think Progress. Just like any site, there are some Hard Cores...At Media Matters there are 50+ people including conservatives who comment. It gets snarky at times but its OK. I have checked Lydia Cornell's site a few times...Some of the articles/postings are interesting...she also has a talk radio show...an oasis in the desert of Right Wing rage. What has caught my eye is that in spite of the radio program, her blog has the same handful of regulars...including yourself.The regulars show knowledge but tend to treat newbies harshly..yes? Case in point: There was a discussion about the situation in Georgia...apparently a Russian immigrant joined the thread...obviously he could lend a unique perspective. It got ugly Mike...replete with insults, sexual insinuations, etc. I did not really think the bravado was necessary...
In sum I think you guys at Lydia's are lucky. You have a site where you can sound off on but why Lydia would allow those kind of exchanges is beyond me. In a lot of sites, you get bannished for trash talking. In fact being civil but disagreeing can get you booted...try Sean Hannity's site and you will see what I am talking about. You seem to imply here that Will and Nicholas are kindred spirits...I just don't see it that way but this is my opinion.
Mike you bring some good discussion to the table. Don't let small stuff get to you. The real enemies are the extremists...Limbaugh, Hannity, Savage, et al not independents, moderates or reasonable partisans...I include myself in this category
Just a bit of help for you John McCain was never a member of the Air Force.
John McCain was Navy.
He's not fit to lead and the proof is the company he keeps as in Keating.
1138, I suggest that you not vote for Senator McCain.
Never had any intention of doing so I just didn't like you smearing my branch of the service. It's bad enough that the current President lies about having served in the Air Force.
I didn't think I was smearing ANY branch of the service. You must be on some sort of disability, right?
Hey Will I've watch you whip yourself in a frenzy saying how you HATE Swiftboating, smearing, and guilt by association..........yet instead of going after Jerome Corsi for his proven lies and smears........you rabidly go after ME for pointing out PROVEN FACTS about McSame after he made it an issue by focusing on it.........did you see the debates yesterday thats ALL McSame dis was focus on his POW status in Vietnam..........I wanna here what these guys will do for the country and where they stand on real issues not someone drumming up phony patriotism and sympathy by telling what happened to him 40 years go.
BTW kinda interesting that a guy that lives in the past focusing on a time when he was tortured decades ago........would suddenly flip flop and SUPPORT TORTURE!
WHERE"S your outrage for Corsi's lies and swiftboating...........is your outrage selective and partisan or are ya just afraid of not marching in lockstep with Voltron and Rusty and that just maybe Crusty will start acting like Nicholas TO YOU!
You asked me why i'm not attacking Kennedy a guy that took some quesiuoinable positions 70 years ago............why arent YOU attacking Corsi who is lying swiftboating and smearing TODAY right here in 2008?
I never even mentioned the Russian, Mike. A lie....or just another mistake? Corsi? From what I gather, he sounds like an asshole. Don't you get tired of manufacturing controversies, bro? Go watch a movie or something, will you?
Mike, I'm not familiar with the accusations in the Corsi book. When/if I do become familiar, you'll be the first to know. All I know now is that most of the people (save, of course, for Sean Hannity) I've been hearing have said that the guy isn't credible. I gather you tend to agree with them.
Mike, this Corsi guy, he hasn't made any metaphors comparing Barack Obama to Jeffrey Dahmer/Saddam Hussein has he? I mean, he couldn't be that fanatical, could he?
Mike, 1138 accused me of SMEARING the Navy. Stuff like that doesn't sit well. Would it sit well with you?
Mike, open your eyes. Just a couple of postings back I slammed Mort Kondracke of Fox. And stay tuned, my next post is going to hammer his partner (in crime) Fred Barnes. Stop frigging cherry-picking me, will you! And stop insisting that I be linear, for Christ!!
Mike, I've had three auto accidents in my life. But only one was my fault (age 18 and stupid). Of course, if somebody was out to slam me, they'd just say that I was involved in three car accidents and hope that everyone would just assume them ALL to be my fault. Would that be fair? No, huh?
How 'bout people who get shot and killed on the battle-field? That would be their fault, too, right? Shouldn't have been where that frigging bullet landed, I'm thinking.
Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...
Mike, open your eyes. Just a couple of postings back I slammed Mort Kondracke of Fox. And stay tuned, my next post is going to hammer his partner (in crime) Fred Barnes. Stop frigging cherry-picking me, will you! And stop insisting that I be linear, for Christ!!"
YOUR the one insisting EVERYONE be linear..............YOUR thge one insisting YOU loathe swiftboating and smearing and attack ANYONE doing it regardless of political party, you even asked me why i'm not attacking JOE Kennedy..............yet heres a guy trying to smear and swiftboat Obama and not a peep out of you........all your doing is STILL rabidly defending McSame from not smears or swiftboating lies but PROVEN FACTS.
So I guess defending and carrying water for the guy you CLAIM your not even voting for is MORE IMPORTANT than setting the record straight on a guy being smeared and swiftboated by lies.........in fact the same guy that smeared and swiftboated John Kerry with lies that you CLAIMED to defend.........that double standard of yours is astounding at you THAT fearful of what Rusty will do if you take a principled non partisan position based on truth and facts and show some outrage at a slimeball liar smearing obama with lies?
Looks like Voltron's giving you talking points to weave into your writing
Hey, didnt McSame say your NOT rich unless you make OVER 5 MILLION a year.............must be nice to be such a fat cat elitist that you consider people earning 4-5 million a year "middle class"
"You must be on some sort of disability, right?"
Forget any semblance of civil conversation with my you god damned retard.
This is what you think of service members and veterans it's clear from that statement right there!
No I'm not on any disability and never have been but your postings here and elsewhere indicate a severe limit to your own capacity and abilities that should be pitied and of concern.
Shame on you Will "take no prisoners" Hart
From where I am standing, Corsi's book is not worth the paper its written on...This is the guy who co-authored the crap with the Swift Boat people...To some extent the MSM has covered this. What I find interesting is McCain himself has not as far as I know condemned the book...I might also say that McCain promised to run a clean campaign but appears to be going negative. (Karl Rove anyone??)
If Will's point is the Liberals should not go negative.ven though Conservatives may deserve it..) then I agree. The the theologian Paul Tillich in his opus magnus, The Courage to Be, stated in aworld of hate, we must love, In a world of fear we must be brave, in a world of lies we must be true, etc, etc...this is self affirmation and life defining itself. Some say Politics is beyond this...the only way is to go negative. I don't believe it.
BTW: Read your profile 1138. As an ex-philospher, I always sided with Kant, Schopenhauer and Hegel...come what may!
:)
Wish I could return the favor Marcus, but sadly you lack a profile.
On inspection it appears that Will "take no prisoners" Hart suffers from a social dysfunction that keeps him from properly relating with others and admitting wrong or error or harm.
Damn shame - most of us had parents (mothers and fathers who used various forms of positive and negative reenforcement) that taught us these things.
Will Hart was apparently raised in a Dickensian Orphanage.
Mike, what do you want me to say? This Corsi guy sounds like he's crazy. I don't know enough about the accusations he's made, though, to speak a lot to it. Come on. And what about when the New York Times did that trashy story on McCain supposedly boinking one of his lobbyists? Did I write about that? NO I DIDN'T ASS-HOLE!! Man, I must really hate McCain, too.
Facts can be twisted, Mike. And, yeah, I really want you to think about this (AKA, stop frothing at the mouth for a second). You're basically blaming McCain for his having been shot down. Mike, do you really want to be saying this? I mean, if it WAS McCain's fault, then doesn't it stand to reason that everyone else who was shot down (or even killed or wounded), it was their fault, too? And you're blaming the guy for his plane accidently being hit by a U.S. missile WHILE HE WAS STILL ON THE TARMAC! Not good, Mike. Oh, and for the record, this Corsi guy has also written many slanderous pieces on McCain. Just check out some of his shit on Worldnet. What, you're starting to like him now? P.S. I never wrote on those pieces, either, dude. See how much I hate McCain. LOL
McCain has conducted an absolutely miserable campaign, folks. And, yes, it's THAT that makes me scratch my head here. This, in that there is no need for this garbage.
As for this 1138 character, only a lunatic or a person who's hatred consumes him so would think that mistakenly saying that McCain was in the Air Force is "smearing" the Air Force. And this is the same stooge (I respect 99% of veterans) who accused me of being a racist on another site, get this, because I used the term, "bro". And he calls me a nut.
One of the reasons I'm considering Barr (as a protest vote) is because Obama caved on the FISA vote (possibly trying to maintain executive power, just in case?). What, that doesn't impress you guys? I thought that that was an important issue.
The Air Force does not keep pilots that down 5 planes.
I'm glad you think he's such an honorable guy but to ME an Air Force guy who despises McCain YES your placing McCain in the Air Force instead of the Navy is a SMEAR.
Of course you a person who has never served, never thought of serving and has no concept of anything military could not understand such a thing.
I think I told you to put a racism gun down, "bro" is not in your vernacular and it shows in the way you use it.
I not your bro understan you crazy Haole?
And you owe myself and every veteran you encounter an apology for that disability comment.
Larry Flynt put Bob Barr in his place, I'm surprised he has the nerve to run even as a lowly Libertarian.
It would probably have been the Green party but Cindy Mckinney got that one. They grow lots of nuts here in Georgia.
I expected Barr to have to run on the Modern Whig Party ticket.
First priority is keeping the Republicans out of power, that means Barr too, we've see what two branches of Republicans can do unchecked.
By the way you can't seem to keep track of which branch of the service you said McCain was in.
Kind of like you don't understand the difference, or even care.
Hmmmm.
Personally I've reached the opinion YOU are not fit to discuss the topic.
You don't know a damned thing about the military or planes or government.
That's my conclusion as a military man, from the way you've addressed the issue and it's parts.
McCain isn't fit but neither are you.
Swing voter?
Get educated because your ignorance is no excuse for your bad judgment and poor decision making. The swing you're best suited to is the one in the children's playground.
I'm not consumed with anger, or hate as you feebly intone, the word for the emotion would be disgust plain simple disgust.
No, I never served in the military. And because you have, you shamelessly shout down anybody who disagrees with you? What an absolute cretin. Oh, and in case you're interested, I've dedicated MY entire adult life to helping vulnerable populations (handicapped children and the elderly) and I took care of a sick and dying wife for 6 years. I've served my society well, too, ass-hole. There, now YOU go get some help, will you. What's that, I'm a "typical white person"? Fuck you. P.S. As for being "educated", I have 4 college degrees. How many do you have?
He didn't "down" 5 planes, you idiot. He crashed 2. The others were him being shot down, a flame-out, and him accidently being hit on the tarmac. Talk about a guy who slimes as easily as he breathes. "The racism gun", "vernacular", what, are you an expert on that now, too? What delusions of grandeur you have. Not on disability? You should be.
1138 Smearing and sliming veterans by accusing the ones he disagrees with politically is standard operating procedure for Will he has been saying similar things to another veteran named Clif for months now!
Will don't give me your self rightious crap.
I've seen you call me disabled and in researching you I've found you calling someone else disabled.
You seem to revel with some osr of superiority thing over the disabled.
If you are helping some one with a problem I fear for their safety and their needs because you are harboring real anger over them for it.
YOU have attacked me for MY service, I haven't lorded you over you for it, but you showed what you thought of it when you made the disabled veteran statement and totally failed to understand or comprehen how one branch of the military has it's own pride and separation from another.
Give me your name and your schools and let's check those degrees (snicker) friend they don't mean a thing and I won't play mine against yours because I can tell from what and how you write that you are full of S H I T.
Now over to downing planes.
Lets get back to your total lack of military knowledge and terminology when a planed crashes it is down - your education is incomplete .
A pilot, saboteur or even a crew can down a plane it does not have to happen in combat.
You a typical white person,? don't give yourself such credit. No one would give such high credit.
You have not served your country, you served some people in need and you got something in return - what you did does not rate as any sort of national service.
I don't beg awards for what I did and didn't at the time, I'm not like these kids these days and I'm not looking for than you's from anyone but what I don't like are shit heads like you that seem to think you can openly insult military service and then think that your stint as a nursing home worker has any comparison.
Fuck you will, and grow a pair.
"Take no Prisoners" Where? In your bath tub?
Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...
Another thing, MIKE, if you actually read my posts (you know, as opposed to hyperventilating/hallucinating), you'll see that I never really support McCain's positions (I disagree with probably more than half of them). I support him when he's being "swift-boated" (as I supported Kerry 4 years ago)"
Seems your obsessed with defending McSame being swiftboated but when Obama is being swiftboated by Corsi's book not so much..........you dont say a godamn thing and when called on it you blather you dont KNOW enough about his book to comment..................YET SOMEHOW you expect me to know enough about Joe Kennedy's apathy and indifference towards the Nazi's to attack him.............THERES THAT DOUBLE STANDARD AND HIPPOCRISSY AGAIN!!!!!!
I can only guess why but I'd say authority issues even greater than my own combined with physical problems since he always wants to call others who did serve disabled.
By the way WILL blogger gives you the ability to correct your original post and list McCain as a member of the NAVY and not the AIR FORCE.
I'd suggest you correct the error, unless you're DISABLED.
First of all, Mike, Kennedy's words weren't "questionable". "I understand your Jewish problem completely" (for example). The man was a bald-faced anti-Semite. That's why F.D.R. canned him, stupid. And, like I've said at least 4 times now, the only reason I brought it up was to show you that if in fact you want to do this sins of the father thing, you better be consistent. Of all the many, many famous families with possible Nazi connections, who do you mention, BUSH! Gee, what a surprise.
And like I said before, moron, this Corsi guy has supposedly (on WorldNet) swift-boated McCain, too - MANY TIMES. Are you just as outraged about that? Didn't think so. Can you say hypocrisy, too, Mike? Double-standard?
My disrespect for Clifffff, Mike, has nothing to do with his military service. It has to do with the fact that Clifffff is a homophobic stooge who apparently thinks that the world rises and falls on his ass. What IS his position on Don't Ask, Don't Tell, anyway?
I worked with kids, 1138, that you wouldn't have been able to tolerate (without pitol-whipping them, I'm saying) for more than 10 seconds. And I never said I served my country (comprehension problems?). I said I served my society well. As for getting paid, yeah, I got paid. But it was a lot less than if I had gone into another field. And what about you? The military didn't pay YOU? What's that, you want my resume? You're kidding, right? You want me to give my resume to person who gives every indication of being a paranoid personality? Sure, you give me yours first, though.
Yes, I know what a downed plane is. My point (again, which you missed) is that Mike (and apparently you, too) are holding McCain accountable for 1)being shot down, 2)a flame-out, of which he was cleared responsibility for, and 3) a frigging missile that hit him on the tarmac. That is frigging Bush-League, cap'n.
Also, 1138, I work with dozens of minorities at work. Not a one has a problem with my "vernacular". So sorry.
Will you are the one that brought up your education, your service to country vs mine and how I was putting myself above you (all false).
So yes I want your "resume, you actually offered it and no you don't get mine first because you in fact offered yours up. I know how to read apparently you don't.
Working with kids?
Try the totally deaf ages 2 to 17 at deaf schools I worked with them from the time I was in the 3rd grade until I enlisted in the Air Force at age 21.
Bud, your the biggest sack of shit I've seen on the net.
You have the knowledge, ability and opportunity to correct an error in a post here concerning a factual error, and error that makes you look like a fountain of pure ignorance and you refuse from some seed of what? What Will why makes you refuse?
Stupidity?
Stubbornness?
There's something seriously fucking wrong with you that keeps you from making the fix adding the footnote and moving the fuck on.
Your words are so precious and inviolate that they can never be altered? Were they delivered on high from God or something?
Me I'd rather correct and be right than be corrected and continue to be wrong.
You are off beefing about this scumbag and his new Obamanation book when he uses crap just like your McCain in the Air Force statement.
What we write has importance, oh it's not all equal in the grand scheme but you who seems to think he's such great shit with his big fictional 6 degrees in finger painting and abusing the disabled should take a bit more pride and have a bit more humility.
Humility Will. There's the word for you today. Study it, take it inside and make it a part of you life.
Don't apply it to others apply it to yourself and yourself only because in the end, in truth the word only applies to oneself, not others.
Then go get yourself diagnosed for whatever stress/social disorder it is you are mirroring out on others.
You need treatment and as soon as possible.
I'm not concerned about you insult of me any longer, that's something you are going to have to deal with from now on, it can eat you bowels, not mine.
Your admitted disrespect of Veterans.
You admit there are over 2 million three hundred thousand Veterans that you do not respect, 1%.
That's a pretty big number, I hope some of the less charitable among them don't meet you in person and find out.
Me, I did my service for the nation, not for some little worm like you. Did I get paid? I don't think you were worrying about it one bit not at the size of the paycheck I was getting, but then unlike you I wasn't doing it for the paycheck.
So long Will keep swinging
Will you minorities at work are not telling you to your face.
I didn't say McCain was shot down
I said McCain downed planes
When A pilot takes command of a plane HE is responsible for the mission of that plane if it is downed and taken permanently out of service under his command it is his.
He may not have had control of the situation, but the tally goes against him in total, McCain has 5 to his count.
In the Air Force (a fact you can't seem to wrap your dim head around) a pilot no matter who he was related to would have been thrown out after the first two incidents which were with no doubt McCains fault and with absolute certainty his second downing of his own plane was flying too low and hitting power lines.
He was a favored son.
"a paranoid personality"
Will, you've got no room to start calling kettles black
"I don't know if he's a good pilot or not, Mike."
Oh look at the factual information and make an intelligent guess.
Better yet look at what the review boards said.
Bad Pilot
McCain was a Navy officer, his father was a Navy command officer and his fathers father was a Navy command officer if you don't think that carries some weight you have never had any contact with the internal operations of the Navy.
It has more affect in the Nave with it's hierarchy of traditions than any other branch of the military or the U.S. government.
Proof is the last thing that anyone will need to get, the proof is the tradition.
Will I'm not counting to five planes I'm only counting to three and the only reason anyone is counting at all is that McCain is running for President with his military service being touted by himself as a major part of his resume.
Ready on day one.
It's fair to look at it and it's fair to say why is he flying into power lines, why is he flaming out, why is he just falling out of the sky on a landing approach?
This doesn't happen to EVERY pilot, not even to a significant statistical minority of a particular branch in a particular model craft in a limited time in history.
It makes John Sidney McCain the pilot an aberration and one should question why he was advanced forward.
The fire on the Navy carrier Forrestal was not his fault and it would be foolish to think so.
The brevity of flight he had before being shot down over North Vietnam could be questioned but personally I don't have time to review that period and the eb and flow of tactics win surface to air missile sites and avoidance. McCains non combat training record does not reflect well though.
POW status and family connections tend to was things clean years later.
It's fair to put it in the equation for discussion if McCain is going to use it the way he has and even if folks don't use it completely fairly, neither does the candidate.
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