Wednesday, September 21, 2011

On Columbus Continued

Christopher Columbus was shaped by a culture and time period that was characterized largely by a) conquest, b) religious superstition, c) religious intolerance, d) ignorance and a lack of enlightenment, e) slavery, f) slavery as a by-product of conquest, g) the conversion of primitive peoples to Christianity, h) a belief that naked people represented an age that was prior to and distinct from that of Europe, and that these same people could reap the benefit of European "civilization", and i) a markedly different conceptualization of childhood than we presently have (children were often seen as expendable, chattel, and frequently married off early). To think that this one man, Christopher Columbus, could have conceivably transcended ALL of this and somehow emerge as a sort of 15th Century version of Mahatma Gandhi nearly FOUR HUNDRED YEARS prior to the abolition of slavery in America is ludicrous......................................................................................................Look, folks, I'll admit it, what happened to the Native-Americans was a tragedy (and, yes, I went through a Native-American/white European guilt phase, too - "The Long Death", "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee", "The Life and Death of Crazy Horse", "Bloodlines", "Black Elk Speaks", "Killing Custer", basically whatever I could get my hands on). But it was also an inevitability. This, in that, even if Christopher Columbus had never frigging existed, another European would have eventually reached America. And, yes, me-buckos, that European would have brought with him the same diseases, the same superstitions, the same bellicosity, etc.. And, besides, it's not like the end result was totally bad. I mean, just think about it here. If it wasn't for the United States and Canada, we all would probably be over in Europe heil Hitlering for the third or fourth generation.....waiting on Montezuma and company to come and rescue us.......................................................................................................P.S. And, yes, the use of the term, "genocide", here is exceedingly inaccurate. One, it blames Christopher Columbus for ALL of the Native-American deaths - even those that happened some 300 plus years after the fellow's death. And, two, it's just a flat-out inappropriate utilization of the term. Genocide, people, is the INTENTIONAL attempt toward the eradicating of a population. Columbus didn't set out to annihilate the the indigenous population of the Caribbean. On the contrary here, he wanted to convert them to Christianity. Yes, he did in fact enslave some of them, too. But it wasn't the slavery that ended up killed them, IT WAS DISEASE (conservative estimates on the percentage of Native- Americans killed off via disease - as opposed to those that were killed off via violence - is 80%, EIGHTY PERCENT!). Now, this isn't to say that there weren't atrocities. There obviously were. But there's indeed a big difference between atrocities and genocide. A humongous one.....................................................................................................P.S. 2 Here's another way to look at it. Let's just say that the Europeans had come to America with the very BEST of intentions (they obviously didn't but just for the sake of argument here), had treated the Native-Americans as if they were Gods and Goddesses, etc., there STILL would have been a massive number of deaths as a result, simply because of the staggering lack of resistance to European diseases....AND what if one of the more advanced Native-American peoples, such as the Incas, had made it to Europe prior to the Europeans ever having made it to America? Those Native-Americans would THEN have brought the European diseases back to America with them and caused a major killing off of natives THAT way - this, folks, without a single European person ever having set foot on America! I think that we just have to call a spade a damn spade here. A lot of this "the pendulum swinging too far in the opposite direction" stuff is simply the result of radical college professors doing yet another hit-job on anything that's white, European, and/or Christian. The way that I see it here, Christopher Columbus wasn't any more a Hitler than the dude was a hero. He was, as most of us plainly are, somewhere in between.

16 comments:

Jerry Critter said...

The world has not changed much in the last 600 years.

Les Carpenter said...

Will... A well put, accurate, reasonable, and totally rational way to look at historical events such as the life and times of one Christopher Columbus.

But don't expect to sway many of the lefties to your way of thinking.

dmarks said...

Will said: "The way that I see it here, Christopher Columbus wasn't any more a Hitler than the dude was a hero. He was, as most of us plainly are, somewhere in between."

How many of us personally participate in the rape of 9 year old girls, and procure countless other girls for men to rape by setting up and industry for this?

Sorry, that's not "us", and far more toward Hitler than hero.

And this is just one example.

And remember, this was LONG after the Magna-Carta, and other advances in civilization. Columbus' personal involvement in mass atrocities and sadism ignored all advances. Even the Mongols were much more civilized in comparison: the Mongols treated well the cities that surrendered.

Columbus raped and slaughtered even after the Taino surrendered. It did not matter to him. Even by civilized norms of the time, Columbus turned the clock way back.

If you want to look for a checkered figure of the past who was a "man of his era" (in bad ways) but who also made things better in some ways, look at Jefferson.

The Prophet Dervish Z Sanders said...

dmarks: Sorry, that's not "us", and far more toward Hitler than hero.

Perhaps, for Will it is. At least he's super convinced that the raping and murdering weren't really all that bad... because the deaths caused by the diseases introduced by him and his men were higher (a WTF POV if ever there was one).

In any case, the ends justify the means... it put white people in charge here, which is what is really the most important result of the conquest of Columbus (and the others) over the Natives of the Americans.

The Prophet Dervish Z Sanders said...

I wonder if Will would excuse an individual who murdered homeless people for sport (much as Columbus murdered the natives of Hispaniola) as being not any more a Hitler than a hero... Would Will say such a person was, as most of us plainly are, somewhere in between?

The argument could be made that such an individual was making the world a better place for the citizens who don't expect a free ride... because less of their tax money would be going toward helping these losers (if there were fewer of them).

dmarks said...

I am fine dealing with Will on the issue of Columbus alone.

The Prophet Dervish Z Sanders said...

I don't think I'm being any more of a jerk then you when you suggest my views are completely black and white/good versus evil. Or that I like 70s wrestling.

And you keep belitting my point of view even though I continually tell you how you're protraying my worldview isn't accurate. That's pretty jerky, IMO.

Anyway, it totally blows my mind how someone could DEFEND Columbus and say he is with the rest of us, somewhere in between hero and Hitler.

And it isn't because I lack the ability to see nuance.

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

Yeah, huh, dmarks, with friends like wd.

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

And wd, it's precisely this simplicity thing of yours which prompts you to so shamelessly say that I am "defending" Columbus. I am not defending anything. I am trying to examine a historical event in its fullest context. And if you knew anything at all about history (and didn't get it all from far-left blogs), you'd know that what I've put forth here in analysis ISN'T even remotely radical. A lot of historians have judged Columbus in a similar balanced light. But I get it. Saying that Columbus isn't Hitler, that Bush isn't Hitler, that Reagan isn't Hitler, etc. is all that an individual like you really needs to hear to "go off".

dmarks said...

Yes, friends like WD, who thinks that the mere possession of something you create yourself is "theft" if some greedy person who had nothing to do with it comes along and points at it and says "Mine!".

I know I know....

The Prophet Dervish Z Sanders said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
The Prophet Dervish Z Sanders said...

Will: Saying that Columbus isn't Hitler, that Bush isn't Hitler, that Reagan isn't Hitler, etc. is all that an individual like you really needs to hear to "go off".

Wrong. I never mentioned Hitler. You're the one who brought Hitler into the conversation.

bush may not be a Hitler but he's still a war criminal. Is that what it takes to get someone like you to go off? Say someone did something despicable... and then you jump in and make the case that the person in question isn't (or wasn't) a Hitler?

The Prophet Dervish Z Sanders said...

dmarks: WD... thinks that the mere possession of something you create yourself is "theft"...

I do not think this at all. I think that if two parties come together to create something, and then the first party says "Mine!" and takes almost all the benefit of the collaboration for themselves, while threatening the second party with starvation and homelessness unless they accept less for their contribution... then THAT is theft.

btw, I think this statement of yours shows how much you truly hate workers. You give them ZERO credit for the creation. In dmarks' world the owners are entitled to it ALL, while the workers should be satisfied with whatever scraps the owners decide to toss their way simply so that they do not starve to death.

dmarks said...

WD said; "think that if two parties come together to create something, and then the first party says "Mine!" and takes almost all the benefit of the collaboration for themselves"

That rarely happens at all. So it is kind of pointless to mention this. In real economics, people only say "mine" if they freely create it or trade from those who do.

"btw, I think this statement of yours shows how much you truly hate workers."
I want the workers to be paid completely for the fair value of their work. And to let workers, not outsiders, decide what is fair.

I respect workers and their choices. You keep wanting to force things on them.

"You give them ZERO credit for the creation."

Actually, they get plenty of credit for the creation: they get paid for their fair share of it.

"In dmarks' world the owners are entitled to it ALL"

No. They are only entitled to what they rightfully own through creation, fair trade, or gift.

"while the workers should be satisfied with whatever scraps the owners decide to toss their way simply so that they do not starve to death."

Never happens. In the real world, the workers get paid for their fair share.

The Prophet Dervish Z Sanders said...

dmarks: That rarely happens at all. ... Never happens. In the real world, the workers get paid for their fair share.

It happens constantly. It's the fricking basis of our economic system!

The fact that you deny this reality shows how much you truly hate workers.

Jerry Critter said...

Often, when you look for someone to do work for you, you ask for a quote. And often you select the worker on the basis of the lowest quote, not on the basis of who offered the "fairest" price.

It is the same with companies. They don't look to pay their workers "their fair share". They look to pay their workers the lowest share.