Friday, June 8, 2012
The Road to Hell is Also Paved With Stupidity
Back in 2007, the United States Congress voted to do away with the special exemption for American Samoa regarding the minimum wage (raising it 50 cents a year until it matched the mainland). Why shouldn't the people of Samoa benefit from such a wondrous policy, evidently was the reasoning here. The only problem is that Chicken of the Sea, one of the biggest employers on the island, decided to move their operation to a highly automated and much more efficient plant in Georgia, leaving well over a thousand Samoans (directly - indirectly, the effects were much more devastating) unemployed and even more dependent on the government. Thank you benevolent paper-pushers in Washington D.C........................................................................................P.S. Starkist, now the largest employer on American Samoa (which, prior to this legislation, had one of the highest standards of living in the South Pacific), is also thinking of relocating to the mainland. When it rains (legislation), it pours (or should I say, poors?).
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31 comments:
Starkist, Chicken of the Sea..even
Samoans, have lots to think about .
Will believes that the solution is that, when the plutocrats flex their muscles, the workers should immediately capitulate. Obviously the problem is that the workers didn't demand lower wages.
Here is a more detailed analysis of tuna and American Samoa than your simplistic and somewhat erroneous analysis.
According to the report Jerry linked to, Congressman Faleomavaega (the non-voting Delegate to the United States House of Representatives from American Samoa's At-large congressional district) said, "our workers aren't earning enough to live..."
That was WITH the increase, which the GAO determined "...was not sufficient to overcome the increases in prices".
Greedy bastards. They probably believe they're entitled to luxuries like eating every day and electricity.
The report also points out that "Chicken of the Sea [also] downsized in Lyons, Georgia where they paid workers some $7.25 per hour... [and] Bumble Bee and Chicken of the Sea... outsource American jobs and exploit cheap labor in foreign countries... [end excerpt from GAO Report]
But the solution can't possibly be tariffs... that might mean slightly lower salaries for upper management... or, god forbid, Will might have to pay a few more cents for his tuna!!! Obviously both scenarios are completely unacceptable.
I'm rating shrimp and cod.
The moral of the story:
Dont eat canned tuna....go to the fish market and buy fresh...sashimi grade if possible...problem solved....next?
Here's another report from the GAO, Jerry. Read this one. http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-11-427
Nice try, wd, but the per capita income in American Samoa was far superior to any of the surrounding islands. American Samoa's was $8,000 a year, Independent Samoa's was $5,500 a year, Tonga's was $6,100 a year, Niue's $5,800 a year, and Fiji's was $4,600 a year. Was it comparable to the South side of Manhattan or Marblehead Neck? No. But because of these jobs they were clearly making progress and because of this stupid Washington policy, they're fucked. Kudos to Nancy Pelosi for voting against this turkey (though, from what I can gather, there might have been some cronyism involved).
"Private sector officials said the minimum wage was one of a number of factors making business difficult."
One of a number of factors. They fail to say how significant of a factor the minimum wage increase was.
"GAO questionnaire responses show that tuna canning employment fell 55 percent from 2009 to 2010......The employers attributed most of these actions largely to the minimum wage increases." The actual people involved say that it was the increase in the minimum wage that prompted them to relocate.
You seem to be saying that it is better to have 7 people working for $1 per hour than 1 person working for $7 per hour. But better for whom?
It is better to have 1,200 people working in that cannery for $3.26 an hour than it is to have 0 people working there for $7.25? And you can't compare American Samoa to Oregon and California. You have to compare it to Tonga, Fiji, and Niue and when in fact you do, American Samoa was doing significantly better. Until, that is, the do-gooders in Washington started sticking there interfering noses in.
Will: Nice try, wd, but...
Congressman Faleomavaega (the non-voting Delegate to the House from American Samoa's At-large congressional district) said, "our workers aren't earning enough to live..."
That was with the increase!!!!!
Yeah, and because of that increase, they lost 1,200 cannery jobs. Nancy Pelosi was able to see the damaging effects of this interfering policy. Nancy Pelosi is smarter than you, wd?......And the Congressman was an idiot if he thought that by raising the minimum wage to mainland levels (where the cost of living is prohibitively higher) he was going to somehow be helping the people of his island. Businesses relocate to the conditions most favorable. The productivity levels of Samoa were just not commensurate with an eventual 122% increase in labor costs.
The government of Samoa should look into turning those canning plants into worker-owened cooperatives. If Starkist and/or Chicken of the Sea refuse to sell -- the plants could be seized through eminent domain.
Giving into employers who wish to jack up their profits by raping their workers is NOT the answer!!!
Jerry asked: "You seem to be saying that it is better to have 7 people working for $1 per hour than 1 person working for $7 per hour. But better for whom?"
The workers, of course. Because in the 2nd situation, you have 6 who are unemployed. 86% unemployment.
And yes that is a perfect example of a very bad government policy keeping people from working.
WD said: "The government of Samoa should look into turning those canning plants into worker-owened cooperatives."
If the actual owners of the plants decide to do so, fine. But it would be authoritarian/totalitarian for the government to force this.
And here WD advocates outright theft: "....the plants could be seized through eminent domain."
WD said: "iving into employers who wish to jack up their profits by raping their workers is NOT the answer!!!"
How many instances can you come up with of these employees raping the workers? Surely you can find one? Nah, you won't. You are using word "Rape" without any meaning.
The problem is that you want the companies to be welfare agencies giving handouts to workers without any regard to the value of the work.
How is providing a standard of living from 31% (in Tonga's case) to 74% (in Fiji's case) higher than the surrounding islands considered "raping their workers"? Again, wd, you don't compare American Samoa to Oregon. You compare it the other countries of their part of the world with similar standards of living and productivity.......And what good is confiscating an empty building? Chicken of the Sea packed up and left and if the government even thought about doing what you advocate to Starkist, they will be out of there, too (the private sector acts significantly faster than the bloated government bureaucracy).
Will said; "...and if the government even thought about doing what you advocate to Starkist, they will be out of there, too ..."
It doesn't matter if government actions directly force companies to flee: there's principles here, like social justice or whatever you want to call it. Something that means whatever you want it to. And workers being fired due to companies being forced to leave is considered to be an acceptible price, and rationalized by excuses which include "The wages weren't high enough anyway, so it doesn't matter if they are paid nothing now."
Legislating "fairness' is oft-times very tricky and sometimes trying to can make matters worse. I wish that we could get wd to acknowledge that.
"...sometimes trying to can make matters worse."
And not trying leaves unfairness in place.
Not really. Because way too often, the idea "fairness" is something dictated by outsiders. In this case, outsiders half a world away. The decisions of the local actors to decide whether a deal is fair or not ends up being overridden by some mighty distant power that has ignorance about the local matters and doesn't have their interests at heart.
The "lcoal actors" dmarks refers to are the employers (AKA the wealthy elites). That's who dmarks wants to run the show. Because he strongly believes in plutocracy.
And Will claims that the minimum wage is way to much, but their own representative says they could not afford the necessities of life. Who am I going to believe? Will, or the actual Samoan representative... that's a tough one... NOT!
These canneries brought a standard of living that was 31-74% HIGHER than the surrounding islands. FACT. This increase in the minimum wage caused one of the canneries to move and has prompted one of the others to think about it. FACT.......How's the standard of living now, wd?
I think it is fairer to say that the minimum wage was ONE of considerations in the decision to move one of the canneries. I have seen nothing to indicate that it was the only one. Wages, whether minimum or not, are always a consideration since they are an expense and businesses are always looking for ways to reduce expenses, even at the expense of the employees and their welfare.
"GAO questionnaire responses show that tuna canning employment fell 55 percent from 2009 to 2010......The employers attributed most of these actions largely to the minimum wage increase." They say "largely", Jerry. So, no, I guess that it wasn't the ONLY consideration.......And not all businesses have the same policy when it comes to wages. Some companies like Costco pay their employees significantly higher than the industry average. They do this because they think that it's more cost-effective in the long run (less expensive than constantly retraining new people).......And even with the low wages that Chicken of the Sea was paying in American Samoa (a place where the cost of things is significantly cheaper than those of the mainland), those folks were still far better off than the people of Fiji, regular Samoa, etc..
Will: ...those folks were still far better off than the people of Fiji, regular Samoa, etc..
Congressman Faleomavaega (the non-voting Delegate to the House from American Samoa's At-large congressional district) said, "our workers aren't earning enough to live..."
That was with the increase!!!!!
He's doing what every politician does; pandering and bringing home the bacon (kind of like Senator Byrd was when he got us building all of those superhighways in the middle of nowhere). And what about now, wd? Are those 1,200 out of work individuals earning enough to live NOW? These politicians obviously and objectively MADE THINGS WORSE. It's called the law of unintended consequences, wd. You just might want to learn about it someday.
This is why we need to utilize tariffs and other tools to force the plutocrats to do the right thing.
I know you believe otherwise, but allowing the plutocrats to rape the workers isn't the answer.
Plutocrats - who are you fucking talking about? The regional director whose job would have been on the line if that particular operation started losing money? The fact of the matter is that the the productivity levels and cost of doing business on that island could not have sustained a 122% increase in the cost of labor. Period, and that's why they left.......And tariffs on WHO? The fucking operation moved to frigging Georgia, for Christ.
Will: Plutocrats - who are you fucking talking about?
Deny their existence... that'll work. They don't exist if you pretend they don't?!
Will: And tariffs on WHO? The fucking operation moved to frigging Georgia, for Christ.
Check the report Jerry linked to. They're downsizing in Georgia and moving more of their operation outside the US.
And what about the people losing their jobs in Georgia? You think they should offer to radically lower their wages? Because, even if they can't earn enough to live it's better than nothing?
I think Will denies the existence of the plutocrats because he doesn't want people to think about them. If they did they might get on board with the 99 percent movement and demand greater equality... something people who worship the wealthy simply cannot abide.
You still haven't said who these plutocrats are. You started off by saying that they were the 1% and when I showed you that most of them weren't CEOs and hedge-fund managers but doctors, lawyers, administrators, engineers, etc. you got a little vaguer.............People losing their jobs in Georgia? People lose their frigging jobs all the time. Nobody has a God-given right to hold one job for an entire lifetime. And equality is something that you earn, wd. It isn't something that's given to you or guaranteed to you by some moronic government bureaucrat.............And the bottom-line remains. The politicians in Washington made the life of those people in American Samoa worse by their dunderheaded intervention.
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