Saturday, June 30, 2012

Facts Pertaining to Fast and Furious

1) Not only did the ATF allow guns to be sold to straw purchasers, they totally encouraged it. And we know this because of the emails that were sent by concerned gun dealers to ATF supervisor, David Voth, his reassuring responses to these emails, and the fact that the ATF even went as far at to VIDEOTAPE THESE PURCHASES.............2) Katherine Eban, the woman who wrote this now infamous Fortune Magazine piece, is a Democrat, a former Hillary Clinton campaign staffer, a frequent contributor to progressive magazines, and a regular spinner for Mr. Obama on MSNBC.............3) The ATF has admitted that they engaged in gun-walking and the acting director had to resign because of it.............4) There have been MANY whistle-blowers who've spoken out on Fast and Furious. Mr. Dodson just happens to be the only one who has decided to take it public.............5) Thousands of guns go to Mexico via the State department every year through legal sales.............6) Only 20-36% (depending on the study) of all guns in Mexico can be ever traced back to the United States, not the "over 90%" figure that the Obama administration has cited. Most of the guns in Mexico in fact are purchased via the black market from Russia, China, South America, and from Mexican soldiers who've defected.............7) Eban lied about the ATF not having the capacity to track guns. Ten million dollars from the stimulus package alone was available and Eban even went as far as to debunk herself. She said that the ATF didn't have a data base for tracking these weapons and a couple of pages later claimed that the ATF had tracked the weapons in the Terry killing back to Fast and Furious (duh!).............8) Fast and Furious is the name that the ATF itself came up with. Sharyl Attkisson from CBS News, Darrell Issa, and conservative bloggers had absolutely nothing to do with naming it.............9) Eban claims to have interviewed some 40 people, but in the text of her "story" she quotes only one retired IRS agent and Voth.............10) Eban goes out of her way to smear the whistle-blowers and resurrect Voth.............11) There was no attempt by ATF to interdict the sold weapons. None.............12) Emails from Mr. Voth show that the ATF and DOJ both had full knowledge of what was going on in Phoenix.............13) The reason that there was "no evidence" was because the ATF refused to put the straw buyers under surveillance, didn't use tracking devices on the guns, and kept the Mexican authorities completely in the dark.............14) ATF agents in Mexico repeatedly asked the people in Phoenix to stop the program because of the bloodshed and the fact that the cartels were snapping up so may of the weapons.............15) According to CBS News's investigation, the approval for Operation Fast and Furious went all the way up to the Justice Department.............16) The rationale for Fast and Furious (again, according to CBS News) was basically to see where the guns showed up, make a strong case, and then attempt to take down a major cartel (not, as the Republicans have paranoiacally hypothesized, to strengthen gun laws).............17) Eban claims that it was Dodson who allowed the guns walk (this after she says that there wasn't any gun-walking). The fellow was fingering himself, apparently.............18) If is wasn't for whistle-blowers like Dodson, we would have never found out about Fast and Furious and it would probably still be in effect.............19) Chairman Issa claims that there are wire-taps which implicate the DOJ and Attorney General Holder specifically. Maybe he's bluffing, but maybe he isn't.

9 comments:

w-dervish said...

Copied over from the Fox Nooz website, correct?

w-dervish said...

I'd like to look over the Fox Nooz article these "facts" came from. Can you provide a link please?

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

Uh, no. The Fox site said that only 17.6% of the guns came from the U.S.. That was wrong. It's more like double that. I got most of the information from Sharyl Attkisson's CBS News investigation, factcheck.org, and various youtube videos and testimony that I double sourced. I also read a good chunk of the Fortune article in which the lady contradicts herself multiple times; saying that wasn't a data base for the weapons and then saying that the weapons in the Terry killing were traced back to Fast and Furious, saying that there wasn't any gun-walking and then accusing Mr. Dodson (who she totally smears along with the gun dealers) of gun-walking. It was a frigging puff-piece, wd. It would be like Sean Hannity doing an investigatory piece on Romney.

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

This is a great video (replete with documentation) that includes a decent chunk of the Attkisson investigation - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=on5I_C75gMM

w-dervish said...

Since when does "double source" mean providing absolutely no sources at all?

Will: I also read a good chunk of the Fortune article in which the lady contradicts herself multiple times.

You clearly read the WRONG article, because the one I read contained zero contradictions.

Will: ...saying that wasn't a data base for the weapons and then saying that the weapons in the Terry killing were traced back to Fast and Furious...

There is no national gun sale database, the serial numbers came from a suspect database the agents constructed.

Quote from Eban's article, "Without a real-time database of gun sales, they had to perform a laborious archaeology. Day after day, they visited local gun dealers and pored over forms called 4473s, which dealers must keep on file. These contain a buyer's personal information [including] serial numbers, and a certification that the buyer is purchasing the guns for himself. The ATF agents manually entered these serial numbers into a database of suspect guns...".

Will: ...saying that there wasn't any gun-walking and then accusing Mr. Dodson (who she totally smears along with the gun dealers) of gun-walking.

There was no AUTHORIZED gunwalking. And you're smearing Voth.

Will: ...then saying that the weapons in the Terry killing were traced back to Fast and Furious...

The agents copied down the serial numbers. These guns were included in a sale where the prosecutors said they couldn't arrest anyone.

Will: It was a frigging puff-piece...

It was hard hitting investigative journalism. Eban should win an award. She got it right when everyone else got it wrong, including this Attkisson chick, who doesn't know what she's doing or is a partisan spinning to make Obama/Holder look bad.

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

Semantics. They did have the serial number and so they could have and DID track the guns once the bull-shit hit the fan.......There WAS authorized gun-walking. 12 whistle-blowers confirm this and so did the ATF when the acting director had to step down. And who in the hell came up with the frigging name, Fast and Furious? Sharyl Attkisson? She pulled it out of thin air?......And Voth deserves to be smeared. Multiple gun dealers voiced concerns over the sale of these guns to KNOWN STRAW PURCHASERS and each frigging time this idiot, Voth said, "go ahead, sell 'em." The dude is disgusting. And he's lying because he's trying save his reputation and ass.......And if the agents took down the serial numbers, then why didn't they put the tracking devices on, too, like they did during Wider Receiver? I'll tell you why, idiot, because they wanted the guns to walk. DUH!!!

w-dervish said...

Right, it's "semantics" that you claimed something exists which doesn't exist (a real-time database of gun sales). They NEVER tracked the guns. They simply checked the serial number on the guns against the database they constructed. This was AFTER they had been recovered (from the location where Brian Terry was murdered). That isn't "tracking".

They didn't put tracking devices on the guns because many of the sales were determined to be suspect AFTER they were complete (they looked at the records and noted that the same person was making multiple purchases).

The "whistle-blowers" don't know what they're talking about. The presenting of the case to the prosecutors and the prosecutors telling them they couldn't arrest anyone was obviously not a part of the process they were involved in.

As for who named the operation... that's more proof (in your mind) that this was gunwalking? If think it's proof that you're watching/reading the Fox Nooz site a little too much. It must be rotting your brain.

I've never heard the accusation that someone other than the ATF agents named the operation. The Katherine Eban article acknowledges that the agents named it.

w-dervish said...

Will: ...if the agents took down the serial numbers, then why didn't they put the tracking devices on, too, like they did during Wider Receiver?

Because they got the serial numbers from the gun shop owner's records. The guns were already sold! You can't put a tracking device on a gun that is already sold.

They put tracking devices on the guns during "wide receiver" because they planned on walking the guns. Fast and Furious wasn't a gunwalking operation! Duh.

Excuse me, I mean, DUH!!! (capped and with three exclaimation points).

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

Bullshit. These gun sales to straw purchasers were arranged by the ATF in concert with the gun dealers themselves. The evidence through memos, emails, sworn affidavits, and Capitol Hill testimony ALL points to the ATF and the DOJ BOTH having complete and total knowledge of this operation and the reason that there wasn't evidence to bust these guys is because they didn't put tracking devices on these guns (WHICH THEY ABSOLUTELY KNEW WERE WALKING BECAUSE THEY FUCKING VIDEOTAPED MANY OF THE PURCHASES!!!!!!!!!!!!), did piss-poor surveillance, and never told the Mexican government what they were doing (well, that and they didn't really want to track them).............And why do you believe the lies of a man who is so fucking far in the stew as to be basically cooked and not the testimony of TWELVE brave whistle-blowers? It's because the President is a Democrat, huh?