Monday, June 25, 2012

Channeling Some Idiot at the ATF

Hey guys, I got a great idea. Let's let 2,000 extraordinarily powerful weapons, each of which is single-handedly capable of bringing down an Apache helicopter, walk into Mexico and into the hands of some of the most ruthless human beings on the face of the planet, and let's do it absent any knowledge and consent of the Mexican authorities. Yeah, huh? What do you think?

44 comments:

Rusty Shackelford said...

What could go wrong with a plan this well thought out?

Rational Nation USA said...

I second Rusty's sentiments.

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

Firing this douche-bag, Holder, would be an awesome Sister Souljah moment for the President. I doubt that he'll do it, though (he's his friend, just like Gonzalez was Bush's friend).

w-dervish said...

Why should Obama fire Holder? Holder was not aware this bush-era program was still going. When he found out he ended it. You're saying Holder should be the fall guy?

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

Operation Fast and Furious was under the Obama administration, wd. Yes, Bush did a similar program but it was significantly smaller and was done in concert with the Mexican government.......And "when he found out" is apparently a topic that Mr. Holder has several times lied about. Yes, he should be fired.

w-dervish said...

I thought lying couldn't be proven? You couldn't get a more clear case of someone lying in bush and WMD, yet you say it's impossible to know if he lied.

It seems you've lowerd the bar dramatically for Holder. In this case some accusations on a Right-wing website seem to be enough.

dmarks said...

Bush lied when he later said there were no WMD. That is very clear.

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

Multiple documents are associated with Mr. Holder having knowledge of this operation FAR before the time that he stated. This is a fact, wd (not an accusation form a rightwing web-site). And it's also a fact that he changed his testimony at least once. Yes, Mr. Bush was wrong and he may have lied but there was at least some ambiguity in the intelligence. There is NO ambiguity that Mr. Holder was informed of this disastrous policy months before and he did nothing to stop it until the shit hit the fan.

dmarks said...

Will; I have noticed that you have kept partisan considerations entirely out of this, and have gone to the meat of the matter.

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

Yeah, I don't get why the liberals are spinning for this Holder fellow. The dude is seriously hurting the President and there's got to be a way to fire him and make it look like he's resigning. That way Obama can move on and Holder can save some face.......As for the moral of the story, maybe it's that Presidents shouldn't be hiring (and, yes, I'm including Mr.s Bush and Gonzalez here) their premium buddies to be the top law enforcement officer in the country

w-dervish said...

I haven't heard about any of these supposed documents. If you're aware of them... that must mean that the Republicans have them? So why are they complaining about wanting more documents?

I'd think documents that say Holder lied would be enough to ruin him. Instead they go with a crazy conspiracy theory about the whole operation being a way to gin up support for an assault weapons ban?

If true it looks like the Republicans are fumbling it. They should go with the lying thing and lay off the crazy conspiracy theories. They might be endearing themselves to their base, but to sane Americans they're making themselves look totally looney.

dmarks said...

"They might be endearing themselves to their base, but to sane Americans they're making themselves look totally looney."

Any evidence on this? Polls showing how moderates see this?

w-dervish said...

I base the observation on the fact that most people aren't crazy. It sounds like dmarks might believe this (that the Obama administration planned to lose the guns)... but that wouldn't surprise me, since we all know that dmarks is quite nutty.

For instance, a huge majority of Americans know that no WMD was found in Iraq (unlike dmarks). They also know that (in regards to Iraq) the war wasn't "already on".

The direction the Republicans are going with this is going to make the American people laugh at them and disbelieve that Obama/Holder did anything wrong.

dmarks said...

As wikileaks reveals, WMD were found. WD knows this by now, and for him to state otherwise is a wide-open lie. And yes how can a war not be 'on' when Iraq was attacking us with great frequency?

As for this issue, polls show the majority of the public has a big problem with how the President is handling it. This is due to the President's actions. Republicans have nothing to do with this.

w-dervish said...

dmarks: WMD were found... for [you] to state otherwise is a wide-open lie. [blah, blah, blah... Iraq attacked us].

The WMD threat bush hyped was the "wide-open" lie. Saying WMD was found would be like if dmarks claimed I had automatic weapons in my house and I needed to be disarmed... then when he searched my house he found 2 bullets in a drawer and said "ah-ha!!"

And, Iraq violating the cease-fire agreement was an issue the UN had jurisdiction over. It was up to them to decide what to do. The UN never authorized the United States to act unilaterally.

dmarks: Republicans have nothing to do with this.

They're the ones holding the hearings, saying Holder "lied", and spinning crazy NRA-fabricated conspiracy theories. Republicans have a lot "to do with this".

dmarks said...

No they have nothing to do with Holders actions. You inject partisanship into this. Will sticks to facts and avoids it.

By the way the US did not act unilaterally. Many nations participated. Another fact you blew. Also WMD were found, not bullets. Your analogy would have only fit if someone claimed that the house had bullets.

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

I do agree with you that the Republicans fumbling this, wd. That much I will concede to you.......As for the documents that showed up on his desk MONTHS before he claimed to have ever heard of Fast and Furious, you might want to watch CNN once in a blue moon to get the actual news and not this consistent partisan version.

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

Oh, and I also agree with you on the paranoid NRA stuff that people like Lars Larson are floating around and in which certain Republican Congressmen are actually buying. There, I agreed with you twice on this thread and I'm absolutely sure that it bothers you.

dmarks said...

Will; Thanks for taking the "partisan politics" card that WD set on the table and tossing it in the trash.

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

dmarks, with so many competent and credible Democratic attorneys, prosecutors, and state attorneys general out there, don't you think that Mr. Obama could have done a heck of a lot better than this Holder fellow?......And like I said, I really don't like it when these Presidents (Obama AND Bush) take to hiring their buddies for this Attorney General job.

w-dervish said...

I do agree with you that the Republicans [are] fumbling this, wd.

Well then, that's the only point I was currently making. dmarks thinks that by mentioning the conspiracy theory being pushed by the Republicans I'm "injecting partisanship". And he thinks you took "the partisan politics card that [I] set on the table and [tossed] it in the trash".

WTF? Who knows. I think this is just another case of a crazy dmarks rant that makes no sense.

dmarks: Also WMD were found, not bullets. Your analogy would have only fit if someone claimed that the house had bullets.

Not much can be done with barrels of chemials absent a delivery system, just as nothing can be done with a bullet without a gun. My analogy is an excellent one.

dmarks: Many nations participated. Another fact you blew.

They "participated" very little. Mostly they signed on because bush bribed them. The "coalition" was mostly a sham.

w-dervish said...

This just in... The Fast and Furious "scandal" is a hoax. The gunwalking never happened. This according to a new article from Fortune Magazine titled "The Truth about the Fast and Furious Scandal". The article says, "...the ATF never intentionally allowed guns to fall into the hands of Mexican drug cartels".

According to the article, the hoax was perpetrated by an ATF agent named John Dodson who, in an interview with CBS Evening News said, "his supervisors had intentionally allowed American firearms to be trafficked a tactic known as 'walking guns' -- to Mexican drug cartels".

This accusation is false. Fortune reports that "five law-enforcement agents directly involved in Fast and Furious [say] the ATF had no such tactic. They insist they never purposefully allowed guns to be illegally trafficked. Just the opposite: They say they seized weapons whenever they could but were hamstrung by prosecutors and weak laws, which stymied them at every turn".

When Holder testified before Congress and said "the use of this misguided tactic is inexcusable, and it must never happen again" HE WAS WRONG (The ATF misinformed him). It never happened in the first place. Not under Obama.

The article is posted on the CNN website. This is the same CNN Will just said I should watch once in a blue moon to get the actual news.

So now that the actual news has totally debunked this "scandal" I await Will's retraction. I won't gloat. Everyone gets the facts wrong once in a while.

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

I saw the interview, wd. The fact that people involved in the scandal say that there wasn't a scandal doesn't necessarily hold all that much water with me. And the fact IS that many of the guns DID end up in Mexico. So, even if they did try and track the weapons, they did an absolutely atrocious job of doing so.

w-dervish said...

You JUST said CNN was "actual news". The actual news says they didn't do it. They wanted to arrest the straw purchasers and were told they couldn't. Have some integrity for christ sake!

The REAL problem here is the NRA and the Republicans who do their bidding, not Obama or Holder.

dmarks said...

"The REAL problem here is the NRA and the Republicans who do their bidding, not Obama or Holder."

And once again WD provides the bubbling ooze of blindly partisan paranoia, blaming a favorite bogeyman of his. No one's buying it. The vast majority of the American people also reject his ideas. He's off in his own little unintellectual world.

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

Because I don't automatically take as gospel some report by a partisan journalist, I lack integrity? What an ass!......The woman who wrote this article is a well-known Obama lackey who apparently lied in the creation of it. She slandered respected gun dealers who has serious misgivings about the program and took as gospel anything that the highly corrupted ATF supervisor, David Voth, said. The fact s that gun dealers REPEATEDLY asked Mr. Voth whether the guns that they were selling were ending up in criminal hands and he REPEATEDLY said that they were not. 2,000 guns and hundreds of dead Mexicans later it should in fact be pretty damn obvious who the real villain here is, wd.......And the guns WERE intentionally put into the hands of criminals as soon as the ATF approved the sale of those guns that they knew were going to straw purchases. Hello!

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

And if there wasn't any gun walking going on at the ATF, then why didn't stooges like Mr. Voth speak up immediately and not frigging wait 15 months? This BS hypothesis doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

dmarks said...

But but... it's all the NRA's fault!

w-dervish said...

dmarks: And once again WD provides the bubbling ooze of blindly partisan paranoia, blaming a favorite bogeyman of his. No one's buying it.

The president of the NRA says the proof that Obama is comming for people's guns is the fact that he hasn't come for their guns... yet. He's lulling us into a false sense of security. If elected to a second term Obama is going to try to take people's guns away! And Fast and Furious was a plan to intentioally put guns into the hands of violent Mexican criminals to gin up support for that gun ban.

It's the head of the NRA that is sowing paranoia. I'm calling him out on it. That isn't "paranoia" or identifying a "boogeyman". The NRA really is the ememy of those who oppose gun violence and think we should do something to decrease it. The American people embrace these ideas (reasonable gun restrictions). Check out the polling and you'll find that dmarks is full of shit.

Will: Because I don't automatically take as gospel some report by a partisan journalist...

I thought CNN was the actual news? Now that they're reporting something you don't like, you're quick to apply the "partisan journalist" label. In any case, it would be fairly easy to confirm the story of the ATF agents you think are lying. Ask the prosecuters they say they went to asking if they could arrest the straw purchasers.

Something I'm sure the author of the article did. It would be sloppy journalism if she didn't.

Will: ...in fact be pretty damn obvious who the real villain here is... And the guns WERE intentionally put into the hands of criminals as soon as the ATF approved the sale of those guns that they knew were going to straw purchases. Hello!

WTF? You said earlier that "I also agree with you on the paranoid NRA stuff". Now you say it was intentional... which means you're now buying into the conspiracy theory? I think you've gone completely off the rails Will.

Whatever. This last comment of yours is complete bullshit (and makes you look like a total nut). That isn't what happened AT ALL. The ATF wanted to arrest those people but were told by prosecutors that what the straw purchasers were doing was legal (even though it was obvious what was going on).

And I have no idea who you think the "real villain" in this is. I'm sticking with the NRA and their Republican lackeys... and their Democratic lackeys too (any Representative that votes to hold Holder in "contempt").

Fast and Furious "scandal" = Hoax.

w-dervish said...

dmarks: But but... it's all the NRA's fault!

Indeed it is. The NRA is responsible for many preventible deaths in the US each year (I'd have to look it up, but I'd guess at least hundreds if not thousands). Americans should ban together and boycott this evil organization.

Also, I wasn't a Holder fan before (and I'm still not), but I'm pulling for him. If he's forced out over this it will be a TRAGEDY.

Fast and Furious "scandal" = Hoax.

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

CNN gave the ideologue who wrote this fantasy a forum to make her case. They did not in any way report it as news. Do you simply not understand the distinction?......I said that I agreed with you on the stupid conspiracy theory that the Obama administration let the guns walk intentionally in order to make a case for gun control. And I've never once implicated Mr. Obama in this scandal. I blame the idiots at the ATF and Holder for being aware of it months before he testified and did nothing to stop it until a U.S. border agent showed up dead.

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

And you're shamelessly and moronically using the self-serving testimony of discredited ATF personel to buttress your idiotic spinning lunacy. This would be like Woodward and Bernstein interviewing Chuck Colson and Jeb Sturat McGruder on Watergate and accepting everything that they say as gospel. It's absurd! OF COURSE THESE ASSHOLES ARE GOING TO SAY THAT THEY DIDN'T DO ANYTHING WRONG!!!! Duh!!!

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

On June 17, 2010 a concerned gun-dealer emailed this to Voth, "As per our discussion about over communicating I wanted to share some concerns that came up. Tuesday night I watched a segment of a Fox News report about firearms and the border. The segment, if the information was correct, is disturbing to me. When you, Emory and I met on May 13th I shared my concerns with you guys that I wanted to make sure that none of the firearms that were sold per our conversation with you and various ATF agents could or would ever end up south of the border or in the hands of the bad guys. I guess I am looking for a bit of reassurance that the guns are not getting south or in wrong hands. I know it is an ongoing investigation so there is limited information you can share with me. But as I said in our meeting, I want to help ATF with its investigation but not at the risk of agents [sic] safety because I have some very close friends that are U.S. Border Patrol agents in southern AZ as well as my concern for all the agents [sic] safety that protect our country. If possible please email me back and share with me any reassurances that you can. As always thank you for your time and I send this email with all respect and a heart felt concern to do the right thing." Mr. Voth obviously lied to him.

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

And this whole bullshit about blaming prosecutors is ludicrous. EITHER YOU TRACK THE FUCKING GUNS OR YOU DON'T! In operation Wide Receiver they put tracking devices on the guns and/or used reconnaissance and, once it became apparent that some of the guns were making their way to Mexico, the program was immediately shut down. In Fast and Furious we had 2,000 AK-47s making their way to Mexico and 300 Mexican human beings dead. 300 human beings dead and you're frigging "rooting for Mr. Holder". Unbefrigginglievable.

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

If Holder is forced out it will be a "tragedy". 2,000 guns making their way to Mexico and 300 dead frigging human beings are you're frigging pining for this Holder idiot. WOW.

w-dervish said...

Will: Do you simply not understand the distinction?

Absolutely I understand. You don't like the story and so go along with the rightwing talking point about it being "fantasy".

Will: 2,000 guns making their way to Mexico and 300 dead frigging human beings...

Yes, that is also a tragedy. One for which I place the blame squarely on the shoulders of the NRA and their Republican lackeys.

Will: And you're shamelessly and moronically using the self-serving testimony of discredited ATF personel...

What's the proof that they're "discredited"? I don't buy it. The author of the article wouldn't have cited them if they were "discredited". You're claiming this just because you don't like what they're saying.

Will: EITHER YOU TRACK THE F**KING GUNS OR YOU DON'T!

All guns sold should have tracking devices in them? I think the NRA would object.

Will: ...you're frigging pining for this Holder idiot.

Not at all. I'm just disgusted by this attempt to railroad him.

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

I don't give a flying fuck what the NRA would say. The guns in Wide Receiver had tracking devices on them and nobody objected to that.......And how do you blame the NRA (who I don't particularly care for, either) for the ATF allowing (dmarks is probably right, encouraging is probably a more appropriate term) guns to be sold to straw purchasers and then not adequately tracking them?......And, again, I am not in any way implicating Mr. Obama here. I'm sure that he had absolutely nothing to do with this. But Mr. Holder clearly knew about this practice and did nothing to stop it until a U.S. border agent showed up dead. The dude totally needs to walk (no pun intended).......And they're discredited, wd, because they were totally involved in the screw-up and may in fact end up being indicted. As for the author using them , she used them because she's an Obama sycophant and will apparently stop at nothing to rehabilitate him.

dmarks said...

WD: Name one such death caused by the NRA.

The NRA, by the way, has nothing to do with the F&F scandal.

If it did, well, I am sure Will would agree, that Holder and Obama would turn over ALL files instead of declaring they are above the law.

They could make great political hay with documents that showed that the 300 who were killed in F&F were actually killed by the NRA.

w-dervish said...

Will: The guns in Wide Receiver had tracking devices on them and nobody objected to that...

Those guns had tracking devices on them because they were a part of a sting operation. The Fast and Furious guns weren't part of a sting operation. Many of the serial numbers were obtained by ATF agents after they were sold. Tracking devices can't be attached to guns that are already sold.

Will: And how do you blame the NRA... for the ATF allowing... guns to be sold to straw purchasers...

The ATF didn't "allow" that. The ATF tried to arrest the straw purchasers but our weak gun laws prevented them (thanks to the NRA).

dmarks: Mr. Holder clearly knew about this practice and did nothing to stop it until a U.S. border agent showed up dead.

It's clear to me that he didn't know. First he said there was no gunwalking (which was correct), then he said there was (which was wrong). What's clear to me is that he was getting bad information.

Will: ...they were totally involved in the screw-up and may in fact end up being indicted...

Why would they be indicted for a "screw-up" that didn't happen?

Will: ...she used them because she's an Obama sycophant and will apparently stop at nothing to rehabilitate him.

What is your proof of this? Is she a "sycophant" just because she wrote (after investigating what happened) this article that shows the multiple posts you wrote criticizing Holder were all wrong?

dmarks: Name one such death caused by the NRA.

All of them.

dmarks: They could make great political hay with documents that showed that the 300 who were killed in F&F were actually killed by the NRA.

They should, but they won't. The Democrats have surrendered on the gun control issue. The NRA is too powerful and too successful at brainwashing it's members. Even conservative Democrats don't dare oppose this evil organization.

Also, bush used executive privilege (many more times, in fact). Was bush declaring himself above the law when he did it?

dmarks said...

WD said: "The Democrats have surrendered on the gun control issue. The NRA is too powerful and too successful at brainwashing it's members"

Yes... of course. WD arrogantly lies and insults the huge numbers of individuals who are informed on the issues and happen to disagree with him.

Like Will, I disagree with the NRA on some things. However, unlike you I am aware that it is successful because it serves its members and represents them. Not for (haha) "Brainwashing".

dmarks said...

WD said

"All of them."

I asked for you to name one death caused by the NRA. Instead you punted. And still have named none.

The fact is that these deaths were caused by Mexican drug lords, and the botched Obama Administration operation that armed them. The NRA did not arm any of them. It was not involved at all. It did not pull any triggers, or provide any bullets.

You are lying about innocent individuals.

w-dervish said...

dmarks: WD arrogantly lies and insults the huge numbers of individuals who are informed on the issues and happen to disagree with him.

I'm not lying, I'm stating my genuine opinion. They disagree because they're brainwashed.

dmarks: ...it is successful because it serves its members and represents them.

The NRA serves gun manufacturers. It does a disservice to it's individual citizen members.

dmarks: I asked for you to name one death caused by the NRA. Instead you punted. And still have named none.

I didn't "punt". But if you want one name... Brian Terry.

dmarks [the NRA] was not involved at all. It did not pull any triggers, or provide any bullets.

The NRA was VERY much involved. It bought off our legislators who weakened our gun laws.

dmarks: You are lying about innocent individuals.

I'm telling the truth about an evil organization that puts profits above people's lives.

dmarks said...

"I'm not lying, I'm stating my genuine opinion. They disagree because they're brainwashed."

Thanks for proving your colossal arrogance.

And, by the way, an opinion that is untrue is still untrue.

"The NRA serves gun manufacturers. It does a disservice to it's individual citizen members."

The NRA serves its members, each of whom joins it because it acts in their interest.

w-dervish said...

dmarks: Thanks for proving your colossal arrogance. And, by the way, an opinion that is untrue is still untrue.

These "arrogance" charges are getting old. I'm no more arrogant than anyone with an opinion that differs from yours.

Also, you are right that an opinion that is untrue is still untrue, but it still isn't a lie. Also, this statement is quite ironic comming from you... an individual that holds many untrue opinions.

dmarks: The NRA serves its members, each of whom joins it because it acts in their interest.

Not really. They act somewhat in their interest, but mostly not in their interest. I don't think it's in the interest of any individual gun owner to arm Mexican drug smugglers. Maybe you do.