Thursday, November 10, 2011

It Would Actually Be Funny IF....

So, just how massive has this "vast right-wing conspiracy" gotten? If you listen to the people on the opposite end of the political spectrum (i.e., those on the hard-core/extremist left), you'd probably come to the conclusion that it's gotten humongous. So, who's the latest to be put into this "esteemed" position? Try (and, yes, please, you really need to be sitting for this one) the 1993 Democratic Congress.................................................................................................Yeah, that's right, people, the Democratic Congress is now a part of this evil cabal in that they (supposedly) tried to protect Ronald Reagan from charges that he somehow brokered a deal with Iran that had them not release the hostages until after the 1980 elections (I believe that there was also something about Reagan being the Loch Ness Monster but that one didn't get nearly as far). Never mind that the evidence was full of holes and that a number of the witnesses had apparently committed perjury (this, not according to me but to then chairman, Lee Hamilton - a person of high integrity and with a still spotless record). Nope, none of that seems to matter to these individuals - their hatred of Mr. Reagan that so all-consuming.......................................................................................................P.S. As for their paranoiac insistence that "government investigations" and a free press never lead to anything substantive, they've obviously never heard of Richard Nixon, Spiro Agnew, Alger Hiss, Andrew Johnson, Thomas Dodd, Adam Clayton Powell, Oliver North, Abe Fortas, Frank Brasco, Francis Shoemaker, Albert Fall, Wilbur Mills, John C. McDonald, etc., etc. (hell, folks, even frigging Bill Clinton). I mean, it's kind of like I alluded to in the title there, it would actually be funny IF....

37 comments:

Anonymous said...

Utterly delicious. I am awaiting the usual suspects to arrive and pronounce "poo-poo" on this one.

I brought popcorn. And beer. I'll set up my trusty "TEA Party Approved" lawn chair over here, out of the way, and simply wait.

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

I'm surprised that it hasn't happened already.............And I'm not even all that huge of a Reagan fan. Yes, I voted for him in '84 and all but that was because the economy was good and Mondale still had the full-boar stench of Jimmy Carter hovering all over him.............Honestly/in retrospect, I'd give President Reagan about a B-.

Jerry Critter said...

Yes they did, just like Obama and the Democratic congress protected Bush and assoc. Republicans are the ones that go crazy with investigations.

#37927 said...

Like the congressional republican led by Newtster WASTING $60,000,000 by enlisting Kern Starr in a 6 year witch hunt that resulted in a consensual blow-job and a semen stained dress.

The right wing STILL can't admit that was a colossal waste of tax payer money.

#37927 said...

Kern=Ken.

dmarks said...

#37: "6 year witch hunt that resulted in a consensual blow-job and a semen stained dress."

The Star investigation yielded 15. criminal convictions. 15. Were you not aware of this, or were you lying?

Also, Clinton did not get in trouble for a consensual blow job. He got in trouble for lying (perjury) about relevant information pertaining to a sexual harassment lawsuit.

Yes, it was a big waste of money. Mostly caused by the 15 convicts lying about their crimes, and by the Clintons claiming they were above the law and ignoring subpeonas. And imagine all the money that would have been saved had Clinton told the truth under oath.

Those ultimately responsible for the cost of an investigation are the wrongdoiers, not the investigators.

You might have had a case if Clinton and the 15 others did not commit crimes. But they did.

#37927 said...

Yo dummy

1. Jim Guy Tucker;

to wit;

Tucker resigned the governorship on July 16, 1996, after his conviction for fraud during the Whitewater affair, although the conviction was not directly related to the investigation of Bill and Hillary Clinton's real estate and related business dealings.

Strike one for wasting $60,000,000 million by Ken Starr, NOT CONNECTED TO THE SUPPOSED CRIMES OF BILL OR HILLARY CLINTON so Ken Starr wasted the money going after the Clintons. The US Attorney's Office - Eastern District of Arkansas should have handled this case like they handled other high profile defendants like Gov Edwin W. Edwards of Louisiana or Gov George H. Ryan and Gov Rod Blagojevich of Illinois.


2. John Haley

On February 20, 1998, John Haley pleaded guilty to one misdemeanor count of tax fraud to the Internal Revenue Service. On August 20, 1998, Haley was sentenced to three years of probation and eight hours a week of community service. He was fined $30,000 and ordered to pay back $40,000 to the IRS. He came into front page national news as a result of the Whitewater investigations.

NOT CONNECTED TO THE SUPPOSED CRIMES OF BILL OR HILLARY CLINTON


$60,000,000 spent on a IRS tax case for $40,000 what a freakin' waste, should have left this to thew IRS.


strike two;

William J. Marks Sr.

He and Tucker pleaded guilty to fraud charge for faking bankruptcy that saved them $2 million in taxes. Tucker and his lawyer John Haley used falsified documents to understate the value of cable television systems William Marks and Gov. Tucker owned in Texas and Florida.

NOT CONNECTED TO THE SUPPOSED CRIMES OF BILL OR HILLARY CLINTON

Same trial as Tucker and Haley, same logical legal reason Ken starr shouldn't have wasted $60,000,000 of US tax payers money when the The US Attorney's Office - Eastern District of Arkansas could AND should have handled this case.

Strike three for your partisan political reasoning.

Out #1

4. Stephen Smith;

Smith gained national fame during the Whitewater scandal.He confessed to getting a phony loan from David Hale's company, saying it was to go for a "disadvantaged" political consulting firm Smith operated in the 1980s. The $65,000 loan in fact was for an overdue bank loan Smith had with Jim Guy Tucker. He pleaded guilty on June 8, 1995 to one misdemeanor count of conspiracy.

NOT CONNECTED TO THE SUPPOSED CRIMES OF BILL OR HILLARY CLINTON

Strike 4

Webster Hubbell

In December 1994, Hubbell pleaded guilty to federal mail fraud and tax evasion charges in connection with his handling of billing at the Rose Law Firm, a firm with partners that once included Hillary Clinton and Vince Foster. Hubbell admitted he had defrauded former clients and former partners out of $482,410.83.

Lets see Hillary Clinton was a former partner of Hubbell, who was charged in part of defrauding his PARTNERS.

Seems not to be worth $60,000,000 eh?

Especially when the The US Attorney's Office - Eastern District of Arkansas could AND should have handled this case.

Strike 5

Jim McDougal;

On April 14, 1997, James McDougal was convicted of eighteen felony counts of fraud and conspiracy charges. The counts had to do with bad loans made by Madison in the late 1980s. As his savings and loan was federally-insured, the $68 million was paid by taxpayers. During the McDougal case, special prosecutor Kenneth Starr requested a reduced sentence for McDougal because of McDougal's assistance in the investigation.

#37927 said...

(cont)

He joined with his wife, from whom he was later divorced, and the Clintons to borrow $203,000 to buy land in the Ozark Mountains for vacation homes. When the development failed, he attempted to cover the losses with S&L funds. McDougal was prosecuted for fraud in 1984 and hired the Rose Law Firm which Hillary Clinton was a partner of to defend him. McDougal held a fundraiser that paid off Clinton's then campaign debt of $50,000. Madison cashier's checks accounted for $12,000 of the funds raised.

Jim McDougal was also found by federal regulators to have made fraudulent loans with regards to his Castle Grande project that was a real estate development about 10 minutes south of Little Rock. The project was a 1,050-acre (4.2 km2) lot where he hoped to build microbrewery, shopping center, a trailer park and other future projects in 1985. The sales price was $1.75 million. State regulations prohibited McDougal from investing more than 6% of his S&L assets in the project, so he put in $600,000 of Madison Guaranty money and had Seth Ward put in the difference, $1.15 million.[citation needed] The money Ward borrowed from Madison Guaranty was in the form of a "non-recourse loan".


McDougal committed the crimes NOT the Clintons neither of them, unless you want to go the far right wing fringe lunacy argument that Hillary Clinton was committing a crime being McDougal's constitutionally allowed attorney.

However the crimes do not rise to the level of a Independent Counsel created by congress when the US Attorney's Office - Eastern District of Arkansas could AND should have handled this case.

strike 6;

Out #2

Susan McDougal;

The worst case of prosecutorial misconduct in this waste of tax payer money;

IE;

During the grand jury, McDougal stated her full name "for the record", then refused to answer any questions. In her book, McDougal explained that "I feared being accused of perjury if I told the grand jury the truth. The OIC had accepted David Hale's lies as the truth. They were also now relying on Jim McDougal's lies, which they'd carefully helped him construct. If I came in and directly contradicted those two -- whose testimony had been used to convict me of four felonies -- I feared the OIC would next accuse me of perjury."

Why was she worried;

Following James McDougal conviction and prior to his sentencing, he began cooperating with the Office of Independent Counsel (OIC), and tried to persuade his former wife to do the same in order to avoid a prison sentence. Susan's defense lawyer, Mark Geragos, stated that her ex-husband told her that deputy independent counsel W. Hickman Ewing Jr. would be able to "get Clinton with a sex charge" before the 1996 election if she agreed to lie and say she had had an affair with Clinton. She denies ever having an affair with Clinton.

BTW her conviction relied on the word of two convicted criminals.

STILL NOT CONNECTED TO THE SUPPOSED CRIMES OF BILL OR HILLARY CLINTON, especially since Susan McDougal went to jail stating they never happened and would LIE on the stand for Ken Starr and his politically inspired witch hunt.

strike 7

#37927 said...

(cont)

David Hale;

Most interesting, because with out his self serving lies, the white water investigation wouldn't have been able to proceed;

David Hale is a former Arkansas municipal judge, a former Arkansas banker, and a self proclaimed Bill Clinton political supporter—though he never made substantial contributions to any of his campaigns.

He alleged the charges that resulted in the Whitewater scandal trials. He worked with Jim McDougal on $3 million in loans from a lending company he ran. He pled guilty and went to jail for conspiring to defraud the Small Business Administration in looting the funds from a dummy business he established . He was sentenced to two years and four months in prison for fraud unrelated to the Whitewater deal. As part of his guilty plea in looting money from an insurance company, he provided the allegations for the Whitewater scandal, and testimony for its investigators . He testified in the trial of Jim and Susan McDougal in 1989 when the Madison Guaranty Savings and Loan originally failed, and never mentioned Clinton in a detailed account of the $300,000 loan at that time .

It was not until Hale came under Indictment on other charges that he alleged any crime by Clinton.


HMMM Hale commits crimes NOT the Clintons but the Republicans believe the criminal to waste $60,000,000 on a wild goose chase? Which Ken Starr never succeeds in convicting the only people who a special Prosecutor is necessary for, only in lower level crimes which the US Attorney's Office - Eastern District of Arkansas could AND should have handled.

strike 8

Neal Ainley


Neal Ainley entered into a guilty plea to two misdemeanor counts of concealing cash payments to President Bill Clinton's 1990 gubernatorial campaign. On January 18, 1996, he lent Governor Clinton $180,000 for his 1990 gubernatorial race. He embezzled the bank funds for Clinton's campaign and was sentenced to two years probation.

No crimes by either Clinton, but congress and Ken Starr thought this election law violation was worthy of waste of $60,000,000 of tax payers money when the US Attorney's Office - Eastern District of Arkansas could AND should have handled it.

Strike 9

Out #3

#37927 said...

(cont)

Well your out for the inning, but we shall continue;

Christopher "Chris" Wade

Chris Wade entered a guilty plea of one felony violation for making a false report to overvalue property influencing a Bank, S&L, or a federal agencies-bankruptcy fraud to the Whitewater special prosecutor, Kenneth Starr. He was sentenced to 15 months in fraud.

Yeah, that is worth wasting $60,000,000 of tax payers money on.

strike 10

Larry Kuca

Larry Kuca pleaded guilty to one misdemeanor for defrauding the US Small Business Administration of a $150,000 loan together with David Hale in July 1995.

Is that really worth wasting $60,000,000 of tax payers money on?

No Clinton crimes here either I see;

strike 11

Robert W. Palmer;

As a land appraiser he admitted to conspiring with Jim McDougal and others with Madison Guaranty savings association. The conspiracy was to inflate the estimates used for the loans. Palmer inflated estimates used to support loans made to Gov. Jim Guy Tucker of Arkansas. The false land appraisals made Madison Guaranty's books look better than they were. Mr. Palmer did about 90 percent of the appraisals for Madison and that about 90 percent of those were inflated. Madison records showed one appraisal was for a $1.05 million loan to Tucker and an associate to buy a water and sewer system for real estate development known as Castle Grande. Later appraisals found the system to be worth about 1/2 of the loan, when the loan went into default it was one of the largest losses for Madison. Hale has told investigators that a Palmer's appraisal and later loan for Etta's Place restaurant and two other lots for $825,000 from Madison that helped shore up his finances. Hale handled federally insured loans in Little Rock for the Small Business Administration. The loan helped him to issue an improper SBA loan to Mrs. McDougal.

Still NO crimes by the Clintons even though Ken Starr is wasting $60,000,000 of tax payers money chasing them but only getting people who should have been investigate and prosecuted by the US Attorney's Office - Eastern District of Arkansas. Wanna bet it would have cost LOTS less?

strike 12

Out #4

John Latham;

John Latham attempted to hide from federal bank examiners a $500,000 insider loan, with a nonrecourse debt that had been made to take a warehouse not on Madison's books. He was jailed six months for bank fraud.

$60,000,000 resulted in a six month prison sentence, what a waste of tax payers money while the US government is operating in the red especially when the US Attorney's Office - Eastern District of Arkansas could and should hav4 handled this small time fraud case.

strike 13

Eugene Fitzhugh;

On June 23, 1994 he pleaded guilty to trying to bribe David Hale. In exchanged for his bribery plea, he was sentenced to 28 months, and prosecutors dropped charges accusing him of conspiring to defraud the Small Business Administration. He also received one year of probation, a $3,000.00 fine and lost his law license.

More waste of $60,000,000 of tax payers money when the US Attorney's Office - Eastern District of Arkansas is funded to do exactly this type of investigation.

strike 14

Charles Matthews:

Plead guilty to two misdemeanor counts of bribery, served fourteen months of a sixteen month prison sentence.

Not exactly what you empower a special prosecutor for eh?

A waste of $60,000,000 of tax payers money when the US Attorney's Office - Eastern District of Arkansas is funded to do exactly this type of investigation for a hell of a lot less money.

strike 15

out #5

and yer outa defendants to the white water case.

#37927 said...

So in the end Kenneth Starr the the republican led congress wasted $60,000,000 on investigating something that could and should have been handled by the local US Attorneys office.

Well except for the Political witch Hunt the republicans mounted through out the 90's against the White House.

Wanna try and justify the waste of $60,000,000 of US tax payers money again?

In the end you get a consensual blow job and a blue stained dress and lots of lost money, Oh yeah, lots of congressional investigations to help the GOPers look good for the cameras and Corporate owned right wing leaning media of the 90's.

spin away again.

w-dervish said...

Jerry Critter: Yes they did, just like Obama and the Democratic congress protected Bush and assoc.

And the Obama administration who decided to look forward and not back (and refused to look into bush's crimes). This is why Republicans keep breaking the law/committing treason... the Democrats refuse to hold them accountable.

The Reagan campaign (in negotiating with the Iranians to hold the hostages until after the election) was following the template set down by the Nixon campaign.

Nixon's people negotiated with the North Vietnamese, asking them to stay away from the negotiating table until after the election.

Will: it would actually be funny IF...

...Will wasn't so blinded by his ideology that he actually admitted the truth for once?

#37927 said...

BTW they didn't even need to waste millions creating a special attorney to bring charges against Spiro Agnew;

During his fifth year as Vice President, in the late summer of 1973, Agnew was under investigation by the United States Attorney's office in Baltimore, Maryland, on charges of extortion, tax fraud, bribery and conspiracy. In October, he was formally charged with having accepted bribes totaling more than $100,000, while holding office as Baltimore County Executive, Governor of Maryland, and Vice President of the United States. On October 10, 1973, Agnew was allowed to plead no contest to a single charge that he had failed to report $29,500 of income received in 1967, with the condition that he resign the office of Vice President.

Agnew is the only Vice President in United States history to resign because of criminal charges. Ten years after leaving office, in January 1983, Agnew paid the state of Maryland nearly $270,000 as a result of a civil suit that stemmed from the bribery allegations.



But for some pedestrian felonies (unlike some of the fraud committed during the 2002-2008 time frame), a special prosecutor and $60,000,000 is called for by republican lead congress?

With out the witch hunt pushed by Scaifes Arkansas project, that Theodore Olsen was involved in GOPers couldn't have wasted that much tax payers money on a politically motivated trumped up scandal.

dmarks said...

#37:

One of the many that stands out:

"In her book, McDougal explained that "I feared being accused of perjury if I told the grand jury the truth. "

All she had to do was tell the truth. She did not want to.
--------------
"In the end you get a consensual blow job and a blue stained dress and lots of lost money, Oh yeah, lots of congressional investigations to help the GOPers look good for the cameras and Corporate owned right wing leaning media of the 90's."

And your conclusion is so flat-out false as to be misleading. The sexual harassment (which Clinton admitted by settling out of court) was not consensual.

And perjury is an actual crime. He got in trouble for this, not the blow job.

$40,000,000 that would have been $0 if Clinton had not obstructed justice and turned over the subpeona papers, if he had not engaged in sexual harassment, if he had not committed the actual crime of perjury.

"..dummy..."

When the facts aren't on your side, you use insults. At least you aren't bashing me as a "Retard" yet like you did to another opponent here.

In the end you have a man who sexually harassed an employee, who held himself above the law and obstructed justice, and committed perjury.

#37927 said...

All she had to do was tell the truth.

Except the TRUTH directly contradicted the testimony of both David Hale and Jim McDougal.

Ken Starr already accepted Hales versions as truth because it fit the right wing meme running around congress and most of the media, so she was actually in a no win situation since the truth EXONERATED both clintoin of the white water rose Law firm lies the right wing was spreading at the time;

Nice try at spin again dummy.


The sexual harassment (which Clinton admitted by settling out of court) was not consensual.

That IS a bald faced LIE

No harassment was alleged by Monica Lewinsky, only by very partisan right wingers which YOU seem to be here.

$40,000,000 that would have been $0 if Clinton had not obstructed justice

No obstruction since NO crime was committed dummy.

Another LIE by you.

Hillary had rights which right wing partisans wanted to deny.


and turned over the subpeona papers,

she did LEGALLY.

if he had not engaged in sexual harassment,

He didn't

Wanna keep LYING about it?

if he had not committed the actual crime of perjury.

The $40,000,000 had been wasted long before Ken Starr got involved in investigating consensual contact between two consenting adults.

Keep spinning the LIES dummy.

In the end you have a man who sexually harassed an employee,

LYING AGAIN about it?

who held himself above the law

No he didn't because he was NEVER convicted.

Remember he was NEVER convicted, thuas he is innocent of the LIES you spread about him, LIES right wing fringe groups have spread for years.

and obstructed justice,

Never convicted thus innocent, but you obviously do not believe in the American justice system, other wise you would LIE like you do.

and committed perjury.

Never convicted thus not guilty,

But you still LIE about it, like the right wing has for years.

Hide behind LIES and innuendo like the right wing has and I'll consider you a dummy like I do the rest of the right wing fringe who are OK with westing $60,000,000 on a witch hunt, but refuse needed aid for Americans who through no fault of their own watch their jobs disappear through out sourcing, down sizing and wall street manipulations and shenanigans.

OK Dummy?

w-dervish said...

Youtube videos detailing presidential candidate Nixon and Presidential candidate Reagan's October surprises/treason...

Nixon's Treason.

Reagan's Treason.

Democrats cover for Republican Treason.

#37927 said...

I see you are also using a tried and true right wing meme of moving the goal posts when your posts is shown as nothing but right wing propaganda and spin.

You quit screeching about 15 convictions which turn out to be class D or E felonies at best, which the US Attorney should have been handed instead of Congress wasting tens of millions on a political witch hunt, but like all right wing political witch hunts it's OK if republicans do it.

#37927 said...

These are the special counsils the right wing GOPers in the Congress unleashed in the 90's

Independent Counsels Joseph DiGenova and Michael Zeldin relating to improper search of passport records, 1992–95. There were no indictments.

Waste of Tax payers money

Way over blown but the fringe republican pushed like hell to get it as one attack against Bill and Hillary


Independent Counsel Donald Smaltz relating to charges of corruption against Mike Espy, 1994-2001. Espy acquitted at trial.

$17.5 million more wasted by the GOPers in congress.


Independent Counsel David Barrett relating to Henry Cisneros payments controversy, 1995–2006, The cost of the investigation was $7.3 million. TCisneros plea bargained and accepted a small fine and probation in September 1999.

7.3 MILLION for a small fine and probation.

Here also the US attorney would have been MUCH cheaper.


Independent Counsel Curtis Emery von Kann relating to Eli J. Segal, 1996–98, The investigation ended in 1997 without any action. The probe started in November 1996 and ended in November 1998, costing taxpayers $381,712.


Independent Counsel Ralph Lancaster relating to charges of influencepeddling and the solicitation of illegal campaign contributions against Labor Secretary Alexis Herman, 1998–2000

BTW Kenny starr wasn't the ORIGINAL
white water special prosecutor;

In mid-1994, Attorney General Janet Reno called for a special prosecutor in the Whitewater scandal. In August, the three judge panel on District of Columbia's court of appeals was hand-picked by Chief Justice William Rehnquist. The panel consisted of David Sentelle, Peter Fay, and John Butzner, all well known as conservative activists. Sentelle was formerly chairperson of the North Carolina Republican Convention and the Melckenburg County, North Carolina Republican Party as well as being a protégé of Senator Jesse Helms. Sentelle was a member of Helm's National Congressional Club, it was Helms who was the catalyst in getting him a federal appointment. Sentelle refused to resign his membership in an all-white country club during his confirmation hearing. He was also on the short list in 1991 for possible promotion by President Bush to the Supreme Court. Sentelle was on the panel which overturned Oliver North's conviction in Iran-Contra.

The three judge panel chose Robert Fiske, assuming that he would be their hatchet-man bringing down the president. Fiske brought in eight prosecutors, 25 FBI agents, and numerous accountants and lower level attorneys. Over 300 interviews were conducted.

But Fiske did not move along quickly as conservatives had hoped in his quest to dig up evidence against Clinton, Helms and North Carolina Senator Lauch Faircloth met with Sentelle after the judge had been given the authority over investigations by special prosecutors. Subsequently, Fiske was replaced for what the Court of Appeals tribunal called a "conflict of interest." After serving as independent counsel for only eight months, Sentelle selected Ken Starr. Sentelle's wife began working for Faircloth's staff five months after Starr's appointment. Five former presidents of the American Bar Association criticized Sentelle's conduct.

People forget how much the right wing MANIPULATED the scandal to get the end they desired. How much they LIED dailyu all over the media trumpeting up each scandal into bigger and bigger cdrmes, WASTING tax payers money all the while screeching about waste of tax payers money.

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

This comment was priceless............."Wow, dope-smoking hippie with a frizzy mullett doesn't like Reagan. That's news! Gotta love the "sinister" music playing in the background. That makes the reptile-brained liberal incorporate said propaganda into their "core belief system", a la the words "hope" & "change" when uttered by a corrupt Chicago pol. Mr. Frizzy Mullett might want to turn his attention to the murder of 3 millions Cambodians on Mr. Carter's watch, but of course genocidal commies aren't really "bad guys" in their eyes."............And what exactly IS the truth, wd? Is it that a good and decent man like Lee Hamilton would sell his soul to the devil simply to protect Reagan? You're sick, man. Paranoid.

Jerry Critter said...

I'm not sure I would call him a "good and decent man" after he said this:

In a late 1980s interview aired on PBS 'Frontline,' Hamilton said that he did not think it would have been 'good for the country' to put the public through another impeachment trial. In Lee Hamilton's view, it was better to keep the public in the dark than to bring to light another Watergate, with all the implied ramifications.

I happen to think truth is always better than cover-up.

The above quote comes from the comments under the following video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7JVEo2jBCg

dmarks said...

#37: "I see you are also using a tried and true right wing"

This isn't "right wing". Just sticking to the facts.

"meme of moving the goal posts when your posts is shown as nothing but right wing propaganda and spin."

Pretty much a meaningless accusation on your part, but it looks like you are one of those who labels information that upsets your world view as "propaganda".

"These are the special counsils the right wing GOPers in the Congress unleashed in the 90's"

Well, yes, of course. There are a lot of meaningless/fruitless ones, just like when the Dems wasted going after Ed Meese. Unlike the Starr investigation, the examples you named did not catch any criminals. However, these ARE perfect examples of "moving the goal posts" on your part. As we started talking about the Starr investigation.

But none of these excuse Clinton and the others for committing crimes. So why do you bring them up?

-----------
"...a political witch hunt..."

The term does not apply, as the investigation netted actual felons, not chimeric witches. The blame for the high cost is laid at the feet of the actual wrongdoers.

"right-wing....right-wing.....right-wing....right-wing...."

You really need to look at things more objectively, and not through your own wing-nut lens.

w-dervish said...

Will: And what exactly IS the truth, wd? Is it that a good and decent man like Lee Hamilton would sell his soul to the devil simply to protect Reagan? You're sick, man. Paranoid.

Delcaring Lee Hamilton a "good and decent man" who wouldn't "sell his soul" really isn't any kind of proof. At all. I'll take this extremely weak denial as your concession that Reagan DID negotiate with the Iranians to delay release of the hostages.

Lee Hamilton did what he thought was right. He thought such a revelation would undermine the American people's faith in their government and that covering up the truth would be preferable (or I suspect that this was his rational).

btw, dmarks constantly insists he is "just sticking to the facts" (following one of his lies), but you have NEVER said a damn thing about it... only when I state something is a fact do you react. And when you do it you're just stating facts as well. Clearly when Will agrees with something it's a "fact" and when he disagrees it's an "opinion" or a "lie".

dmarks said...

WD: Which lie was it? Describe it please.

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

If there was ANYTHING to this story, guys like frigging Dan Rather would have been creaming in their jeans. Bringing down yet another Republican President is the stuff of dreams for guys like Rather.

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

And Lee Hamilton aside, I ask once again, wd - How come you only accuse Republicans of such dastardly actions; Bush as a war criminal, Reagan a traitor? What about frigging LBJ? That miserable son of a bitch was single-handedly responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of young American men. And what about FDR? He routinely targeted major population centers in Japan throughout the war (I personally don't have a problem with this in that we were basically fighting for world freedom in WW2 but YOU as a progressive who so rails against targeting civilians should at least have some pause). And, of course, the fact that Mr. Obama has nearly sextupled the drone attacks in Pakistan, YOU'D THINK......

dmarks said...

"Bringing down yet another Republican President is the stuff of dreams for guys like Rather."

Dan Rather was so gunning for Bush that he stuck to the fake Bush AWOL story for weeks after it was found to be based on forged documents from recent years.

w-dervish said...

Will: How come you only accuse Republicans... What about frigging LBJ?... what about FDR?... but YOU as a progressive who so rails against targeting civilians should at least have some pause... Obama has nearly sextupled the drone attacks in Pakistan, YOU'D THINK.

I don't know, what would you think? War crimes occur when specific international laws are broken. Tell me what laws the Democratic presidents you mention have broken and perhaps I'll be convinced they are guilty of war crimes.

I don't know why I should be convinced when you've totally failed to make your case.

Will: Bringing down yet another Republican President is the stuff of dreams for guys like Rather.

Yet another? What are you talking about Will? The only Republican president who was "brought down" that I'm aware of was Nixon. The only reason he was brought down was because his crimes were so obvious that they couldn't be covered up... although I'm sure they tried.

When they can cover up the crimes they do... witness Reagan... they covered up his crimes of delaying release of the hostages (while a candidate) and of selling arms to the Iranians (while president)!

dmarks: Dan Rather was so gunning for Bush that he stuck to the fake Bush AWOL...

The story wasn't fake, nor was it based on forged documents. We've discussed this before. The story was finished/ready to air when the documents were uncovered. The bush White House CONFIRMED that the documents were genuine, so they decided to include them in the ALREADY FINISHED story.

Later it turned out they were fake. A theory (which I believe) is that Karl Rove comissioned the fake documents and made sure CBS got a hold of them. The purpose of this was so that after CBS ran with the story, it could then be "debunked". But bush really was AWOL... all you've got to do is interview the people who were there. But, no matter, the fake debunking worked. Nobody discussed bush going AWOL (which he did) again.

dmarks said...

"Nobody discussed bush going AWOL (which he did) again."

Only in your imagination. And in Dan Rathers. And on the documents that were faked by someone opposed to Bush.

In reality, there was no AWOL.

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

You've never heard of the Gulf of Tonkin, wd? LBJ and McNamara lied about it and, because of that, tens of thousands of young Americans died in a foreign land. "I will never send American boys to do the fighting that Asian boys should be doing." Criminal? I would say, yeah.

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

And this whole thing about Republicans never being investigated is laughable. Watergate, Iran-Contra, the Valerie Plame fiasco (Patrick Fitzgerald wasn't zealous ENOUGH for you?) - all of these things were aggressively investigated.............And, yes, if there was something to this idiotic and discredited Consortium News (LOL) story, Reagan would have been thoroughly skewered over it - 1) by Congress AND 2) by Rather. This is simply you hating Reagan.

#37927 said...

Iran-Contra, major crimes committed with Bush Sr handing out pardons when he lost in 1992, but the truths were never fully revealed.

Like how Colin Powell as Casper Weinburger's assistant at the pentagon directed weapons from pentagons stock piles to be given to the CIA who then sold them to Iran, through Israel and the Saudis as conduits.


Also the investigation was diverted away from the President, a tactic worked quite well both in congress and the media;

But it was also due in large part to a tactic developed mainly by Attorney General Edwin Meese, which was to keep congressional and public attention tightly focused on the diversion. By spotlighting that single episode, which they felt sure Reagan could credibly deny, his aides managed to minimize public scrutiny of the president's other questionable actions, some of which even he understood might be illegal.

Very little of the illegal support for the Contras was ever looked into.

BTW Dick Cheney was also part of the congressional committee investigating Iran-Contra. He made sure things didn't go where the GOPers like Bush Sr ET AL didn't want it to.


BTW John Poindexter and Olivier North both lied to congress and the special prosecutor, which had the same results as Lewis Libby lying to Patrick Fitzgerald.


Iran Contra was NEVER fully investigated OPENLY near to the effect that Watergate was;

NEVER


Valerie Plame;

PLEASE;

According to the special counsel, Patrick J. Fitzgerald;

Mr. Fitzgerald would not say on Friday whether he believed that Mr. Libby had in fact violated either law. He said that question had been impossible to answer, because Mr. Libby's misleading answers to investigators and the grand jury had obscured what actually took place. He likened his problem to that of a baseball umpire who was unable to make a call because of sand thrown in his eyes.

Libby was covering for the rest of them, Dick Cheney (whom Libby worked directly under) included.

Libby got convicted but freed from doing time for his crimes by Bush Jr.


Watergate was the last republican scandal actually fully looked into, as for the presidential and high level executive branch official criminal activity.

To say otherwise is to deny the facts and continue the propaganda that the right uses, something you do quite regularly, will.

Hope I didn't further hurt your feelings.

#37927 said...

there was no AWOL.
technically there is because Bush never provided a good reason he failed to show up for the duty he was obligated to do.

However he wasn't investigated nor charged in 1970's and time allowed him to escape, but NO proof of doing the duty does show he was AWOL.

The burden of proof does fall on the service member, IE show up and be accounted for, OR show a good legal reason you didn't.

Just because Bush Jr. got a free pass doesn't mean he wasn't AWOL.

w-dervish said...

Will: This is simply you hating Reagan.

Bullshit/what #37927 said. This (you denying Reagan's treason) is simply due to your moderate extremism.

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

wd, name me ONE credible person in either politics or journalism who in any way accepts what you're saying here. ONE! And, no, I'm not talking about some weaselly partisan stooge from some highly biased and obscure piece of internet toilet paper. I'm talking about an actual journalist. And, yes, I would absolutely include Mr. Rather here. This, in that, while Rather may indeed hate Republicans, the man is an honest and credible journalist who wouldn't knowingly accept the testimony of perjurers.

w-dervish said...

Will: name me ONE credible person in either politics or journalism who in any way accepts what you're saying here.

Robert Parry. He is a credible journalist who was awarded the George Polk Award for National Reporting in 1984 for his work with the AP on the Iran-Contra story and uncovering Oliver North's involvement in it when he worked for Newsweek.

Newsweek is the second-largest news weekly magazine in the U.S.

Another individual who supports this theory is former U.S. National Security Council Garry Sick. Sick served in this position under Presidents Ford, Carter, and Reagan (briefly). Gary Sick is an American academic and analyst of Middle East affairs, with special expertise on Iran. Mr. Sick is also one of the primary sources cited by Robert Parry, as well as the author of his own book on the subject.

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

Weak, very weak. He worked (past tense) for Newsweek.

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

From Wikipedia......"Retired CIA analyst and counter-intelligence officer Frank Snepp of The Village Voice compiled several investigations of Sick’s allegations in 1992. Snepp alleged that Sick had only interviewed half of the sources used in his book, and supposedly relied on hearsay from unreliable sources for large amounts of critical material. Snepp also discovered that in 1989, Sick had sold the rights to his book to Oliver Stone. After going through evidence presented by Richard Brenneke, Snepp asserted that Brenneke’s credit card receipts showed him to be in Portland, Oregon, during the time he claimed to be in Paris observing the secret meeting."......LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!