Monday, March 29, 2010
To Compel or Not to Compel
I have very mixed feelings about this so-called "individual mandate". On the one hand, it does seem to be at least somewhat dictatorial - the federal government compelling its citizens to purchase a product. This, BUT, on the other hand, it's extremely hard to envision any sort of telling reform (absent single-payer and/or a voucher system) happening without it. We certainly can't get rid of preexisting condition clauses without it (this, in that people will simply wait UNTIL they're sick and THEN purchase the policy)................................................................................................As to whether the federal government compelling individuals to purchase health insurance is, in any way, equivalent to the states compelling these folks to purchase car insurance, again, it's significantly more complicated that those most embroiled in the argument have made it out to be. Yes, the government is compelling its citizenry to purchase something. But, it also must be stated that one case involves the federal government. The other one does not. That, and it could also be argued that the auto insurance mandate is a mandate that just as much protects other people (the liability component) as it does the insured driver (health insurance being purchased more to protect oneself). Granted, if a person doesn't have health insurance, the possibility exists that eventually the taxpayer ends up picking up the tab (so, yeah, other people can and often do get hurt).....Like I said up front, it's pretty damn complicated.
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57 comments:
I would presume that they will use Social Security as their precedent. That began as a voluntary program and was changed to a mandatory one when not enough people (money) signed up for it. There will need to be a large pool to be able to cover expenses.
Excellent point (as always), double s. The plan in general (and the preexisting condition part of it specifically) would absolutely be unworkable if it didn't have the mandate. It's a bitter pill but we just might have to swallow it.
There is NO DIFFERENCE between the states mandating the purchase of auto insurance and the federal government mandating the purchase of health insurance..........its a right wing talking point if one is acceptable why isnt the other?
Further the health care plan than was just passed was essentially identical to Mitt Romneys health care plan in Mass.........and very similar to Oren Hatch's propsal in the 1990's............so tell me Willy were those guys super secret closet SOCIALISTs that were for "unconstitutional" "Socialist" health care plans before they were against em..........who knew :)
Certainly one can argue that, Mike. And, yes, I'm pretty sure that they will. Of course, the other side will no doubt argue that there is in fact a huge difference between the federal government (a far, more central authority) mandating something and any state government doing it. I mean, you sure as hell know that Romney's going to be hitting that note. LOL
Mike, we were thinking the same thing at the same time. Wow! Now THAT is really errie.
What will be interesting is if the public OVERWHELMINGLY supports this healthcare plan over the next few years and Romney does another about face flip flop and tries to take credit for the plan he designed and is now running away from and trying to spin and deny.
If the health care plan becomes popular, you're right, he'll no doubt become a liberal again......Seriously, though, this guy has flip-flopped more than McCain and Kerry combined.
From my point working in a hospital while its nice idea that anyone can walk into an emergency room and get treated for injuries the careless fools that live by that option bring up health care costs for us all.
The other issue is that an emergency room visit is okay for things ranging from the flu to a broken bone but such a visit cannot help you with cancer treatments. Without health insurance unless you qualify for some sort of help like medicare or medicaid you are screwed, blued and tatooted. And as much as it may be a surprise to some people do walk into hospitals and get told they are terminal and go home without any treatment and die some time later because they do not have insurance.
So I am okay with everyone being required to buy insurance. This is far from a perfect solution but right now it’s the only one we have.
Romney's a slippery eel and will find a way to spin his current opposition to this bill to the one he signed into law in his state.
I agree With Beach Bum on ALL Counts.......good post!!
The difference is simply this:
You don't HAVE to drive.
Unless you off yourself you DO have to exist. The healthcare bill is a tax or fine on simply being born.
Also, auto insurance is to protect others from you.
How can the government force you to protect yourself? Isn't the pursuit of happiness risky in and of itself?
And think about the health care professionals, the amount of school required, the cost.
Why do you think you have a right to their talents or skills for free?
If you were a carpenter should the government force you to build a home for someone living on the street for free?
Also note how well Romney's plan is working in Mass.
Hint: They're going broke paying for it, and doctors are fleeing the state.
NO ONE has a RIGHT to free health care, because those who provide health care (should) have a right to sell their skills and talents at a price THEY choose.
My goodness Will,you kicked over a rock and there's deluded Mike.
I'm impressed that fruitbowl ventured out sans Worf and Clif.The meds must be working.
Voltron said...
The difference is simply this:
You don't HAVE to drive."
No but you DO need to take responsibility and get insurance to provide medical care to those that you might hurt WHILE YOU DRIVE..........figures an ignorant uneducated truck driver would be too stupid to grasp that concept.
Voltron said...
"How can the government force you to protect yourself? Isn't the pursuit of happiness risky in and of itself?"
Hey Duncetron the government is forcing the uninsured to take responsibility and pay their fair share so tax payers like me and you arent forced to pick up the tab for an emergency room visit that costs several times the price of treating those who are insured.
Right wing knuckle heads like you seem to think that going to the emergency room is free that the man in the moon picks up the tab...........its typical of the "magical" right wing thinking with its delusional irrational dishonest talking points that are not in any way based on realty or logic........the truth is tax payers bear the cost of the uninsured using he emergency room and its one og the key reasons we see outrageous premium inflation.
But as usual Duncetron doesnt provide ANY real facts or solutions.........just right wing BS!
Voltron said...
"And think about the health care professionals, the amount of school required, the cost.
Why do you think you have a right to their talents or skills for free?
If you were a carpenter should the government force you to build a home for someone living on the street for free?"
Uhh Duncetron..........."WE" dont think anyone has a right to medical care for free.........thats why the new plan makes people pay for THEIR OWN HEALTH CARE.
No Duncetron the government shouldnt force YOU to build a home for someone for free.............they should do what Obama's health care Bill did and make them take responsibility and actually pay for it themselves rather than have tax payers like me pick up the tab..............try to keep up and pay attention.......even though your reading comprehension is shall we say "challenged"
Voltron said...
Also note how well Romney's plan is working in Mass."
yeah like 95%-97% are happy with it vs the cyrrent crap system we've had were I think it would be generous to find 25% that are happy with it.
Poor duncetron.......trying to argue dishonest right wing talking points.
Voltron said...
NO ONE has a RIGHT to free health care, because those who provide health care (should) have a right to sell their skills and talents at a price THEY choose."
Hey STUPID..........where are you getting this "free" health care crap............we didnt get single payer........the reform that was passed calls for EVERYONE to pay for their own health care......so WHAT exaxctly are you saying is "FREE"
This stuff must be too complicated for your walnut sized right wing trucker brain to comprehend i'll have to be more patient with you Duncy!
as for them charging ANY PRICE THEY CHOOSE..........sorry Duncy but those days should come to an end........there is a huge difference between a fair price and whatever price a price gouging monopoly feels like charging.
I think I was wrong about Mikes meds working.
Mike you are correct!!! Healthcare reform is way free.You are correct on that account.Everyone must pay into it,including small businesses and people in their late teens and early twentys.
Do illeagels pay into it? Does congress pay into it? Do people already covered pay into it?
Are prexisting conditions really covered? Are children with prexisting conditions really covered?
How does this bill get paid for? You lefties keep bringing up Medicare and SS.......the news flash is both those programs are either broke or on their way to broke.So will we have another social program that bleeds the country dry?
You guys never have an answer how the bills will be paid.Oh yea,other then tax the rich.
And please dont come up with the medicare waste elimination.
You should stop toeing the party line and try thinking for yourself.
This health care bill is similar to someone making 20 grand a year buying a $60,000 BMN and when the first payment comes due he realizes WTF did I do here.
Um crusty, congress BUYS their health care insurance from a set of options the health care LAW is going to allow you to get into because the reconciliation bill OPPOSED by tea baggers like you and voltron mandates congress and their staff to purchase their health care from the same polls that the rest of us are going to use.
"Do illeagels pay into it?"
Probably not but since the mass majority of undocumented foreigners who migrate here to be employed by people who illegally hire them why not put the bill where it belongs at the feet of those who are making a profit from breaking the law. Then they would STOP hiring people who have no legal right to that job and the mass migration for employment would dry up, OH right the greedy people don't want the low wage trail to dry up but just hype up the dumber base with out admitting their culpability.
"Does congress pay into it?"
Yes crusty, they BUY their health care insurance, it was in pre reform era they had their own special polls we weren't allowed access to, that is changing.
"Do people already covered pay into it?"
Yes moron they PAY for their own insurance
"Are prexisting conditions really covered?"
Well since it will be illegal for the greedy bastards who used to make billions off of condemning people to death for profit, the only real death panels this country ever had, that will change.
" Are children with prexisting conditions really covered?"
Yes since it will be illegal to exclude them from coverage and sentence many to death and their parents to bankruptcy, just so the greedy bastards could make a few more pieces of silver.
This health care bill is similar to someone making 20 grand a year buying a $60,000 BMN and when the first payment comes due he realizes WTF did I do here.
No crusty that was the plan when wall street was pushing mortgage brokers to sell loans people couldn't afford to them so Wall Street could LIE to people and sell the recombined tranches of such loans as triple A investments so the greedy bastards could make billions in profits, and the republicans cheered them on, or totally ignored the required DIRECT oversight required of executive branch agencies, and of course Alan Greenspan has admitted his clueless deluded allegiance to the fiction of Ayn Rand directly contributed to this debacle.
But for some reason crusty conflates the negligence of republicans to do the jobs they agreed to do when they took the oath of office in the executive branch before the 2008 melt down with the lies the republicans have told the last year about health care.
BTW crusty what exactly is a BMN?
More fairy tales you tell yourself while you see the failures of Reaganism mount up?
You guys never have an answer how the bills will be paid.Oh yea,other then tax the rich.
This is funny coming from a dope who defends the failures of reagan and bush both of which cut taxes for the rich while creating the incredible mountain of debt we face,
reagan's IOU's have never been paid, nor have the bush debacles (taking a government surplus handing it away free to the rich, and doubling the debt instead)begun to be considered to be paid.
BTW before you lie again crusty,
1.4 trillion of last years debt george w bush signed into law, not President Barack Obama. The debt belongs the bush crusty he signed the bill before he left in disgrace.
Yep,you're correct,all the debt incured the past 18 months is GWB's fault.The dems spending spree had absolutly nothing to do with it....nothing I tell you.
Repeat after me,repeat after me...the stimulus worked...the stimulus worked....the stimulus worked.
Repeat after me,repeat after me....Barney Frank and the dems had nothing at all to do with the mortgage crisis....repeat...they were not in any way responsible...it was Bush's fault....repeat after me,repeat after me....it was the fault of Bush and the Wall Street bankers.Good now go forth and spread the message.
Repeat after me crusty,
George W Bush signed the budget into law.
All 1.4 trillion dollars of deficit spending in that budget,
Just like the trillions Bush borrowed from China because Bush and the republicans couldn't balance the budget when they have complete control of congress and the white house.
Bush approved all of it with his signature.
Bush signed it,
Bush owns it.
Very simple crusty.
Your tea bagging rants do not change the facts crusty.
But do continue ranting against "darkies", "homosexuals", "welfare queens" (but not the wall street republicans ones) "teenagers with their pants down around their knees", (poor poor crusty is a getting old and hates it) "dopes with their hats on side ways" (crusty hates Gomer Pyle?)and "illeagels swimming ashore" (must HATE Cubans since Mexicans just walk across the border) and the other things you really are angry at crusty.
Shows you for who you really are.
Repeat after me,repeat after me,repeat after me....conservative bad,liberal good....conservative bad,liberal good.
Repeat after me,repeat after me....dems did'nt raise national dept,Bush did....repeat after me...Bush and Bush only raised the deficit...it was Bush and Bush only.
Repeat after me,repeat after me...call all conservatives racist...call all conservatives racist.
Repeat after me,repeat after me,repeat after me....socialism is good,socialism is good,socialism is good.
Go forth....spread the word of the anointed one....spread his word...spread his word.
Repeat after me,repeat after me...the chosen one can do no wrong...spread the word.
conservative bad,liberal good.
Never said that nice try at dishonestly spinning the facts.
Bush and Bush only raised the deficit...it was Bush and Bush only.
Well see how crusty lies,
I said REAGAN also, because he was the president who began the republican philosophy of borrow and spend with no plans on ever repaying the debt, because the republicans have never proposed any real plan to do so, but have ran up the vast majority of the debt in the last 30 years,
See how crusty dishonestly tries to spin the facts.
call all conservatives racist.
Not all crusty, that is dishonest spin, I called you one and only you one, based on your racist rants at Lydia's blog.
Why are you so dishonest about what people post?
Go forth....spread the word of the anointed one....spread his word...spread his word.
What does this mean, part of your delusional ranting?
Nobody was spreading any word just posting facts crusty, you know the things you seem to hate so much?
I guess the facts are not what crusty seeks, since they show how badly Reaganism has hurt the middle class and the country, by giving the republicans the ideology of borrow and spend which is still in effect because no republican has ever suggested how to pay off the debt run up by Ronald Reagan l;et alone the mountains of debt bush ran up, including the 1.4 trillion dollars of debt bush signed into law in 2008 as part of the 2009 budget.
Sorry if the facts do not fit the delusional spin you keep pushing crusty but the don't.
"Racist Rants!" Your tendencies to label someone based on your personal delusions is a warning sign of a very troubled individual.Its clear you're the only one who does'nt see it.If you have'nt already you should consider professional help.
Sorry crusty but I don't have to use any delusions,
You wrote "darkies" among other racist remarks in your rants,
Admit you did it is there for all to see.
Rustyridesagain said...
You pinkys have got to stop pushing these people.
Dont you understand most Americans really dont understand nor do they cotton to cowards and pinkos......so what ever comes your way is your making.
I'm mean you've got to stop embracing those homosexuals,ungodly people,wefare queens looking for a handout,the darky crack dealers,women aborting baby after baby,teenagers with their pants down around their knees,dopes with their hats on side ways and illeagels swimming ashore.
Those folks are bleeding the nation dry.
1:43 AM
When you were attempting to defend people who wanted to murder a police officer in order to pull a terrorist style mass murder operation at that police officer's funeral to murder many police officers.
Sorry but you wrote that I didn't crusty.
I just pointed out how extreme you really are.
You for some reason don't like how it looks when pointed out in this manner.
But you wrote it.
Your ranting against people who are "darkies" or have visual clues you associate with them, "wefare queens looking for a handout,the darky crack dealers, teenagers with their pants down around their knees,dopes with their hats on side ways and illeagels swimming ashore."
Seems to belie your protestations to the contrary crusty.
PS: what exactly do you have against Cubans trying to escape Cuba, since the vast majority of Mexicans simply WALK across the border but Cubans need to SWIM ashore to get here.
Why include Cubans in your rant?
As Will has pointed out many times in the past you sir are a liar pure and simple nothing more,nothing less.
Its pretty clear why you've been banned from blog after blog.People realize your lies and fabrications.
You really should consider that professional help.
As Will has pointed out many times in the past you sir are a liar pure and simple nothing more,nothing less.
1. Willy has pointed out no such thing, crusty, at least about me.
However, the truth does seem to sting you quite a lot.
Its pretty clear why you've been banned from blog after blog.People realize your lies and fabrications.
2. I am banned from no blogs, but do continue to dishonestly spin against the words you originally wrote crusty, helps show how really bad they are.
You really should consider that professional help.
3. I am not the one running out of ideas from the Rovian play book spinning against the words written like you are crusty.
But you seemed to think they were good words when you wrote them even though it was pointed out at the time, you should listen to others more often, then you wouldn't seem so incredibly hate filled or out of the main stream of 21st century American Society.
But then again that is really the problems all you tea baggers face, demanding a turn back of the clock to before all the changes of the 20th century which has produced the most open and equal society on the face of the earth.
You want to go back to when only the right people were allowed power or access. Too bad the promise of the founding fathers has come more closely to their ideals, for you and your ilk that is.
UConn 90 Florida State 50. Other than that (well, other than the fact that UConn's winning streak is currently 76), I got nothin' to say.
Funny, Willy, when a MSM bobble head makes a statement you don't like you go all gibberish about it, but when crusty openly makes racist remarks, then defends them on your blog;
I got nothin' to say.
priceless.
The new "progressive" playbook...brand anyone who disagree's with the chosen one and any of his policies a racist...fabricate,lie,do any thing but always remember to use the word racist as much as possible.
You see this ploy on all the liberal stations...Matthews is using it,of course KO and the carpet muncher are out front with it,why even Allen Colmes used it last night on O'Riellys show...hmmm,sort of looks a bit contrived.
I guess they are so scared of the Tea Party Movement this is their battle plan.Kind of remindes me of their fear of Palin.
I would simply remind Rusty that a large chunk of the people who buy drugs in the inner city are white kids from the suburbs. As for homosexuality, I don't at all see it as a choice. And, yes, because of that, I clearly don't think that we should discriminate against them.
Illegal immigration is a much, much, tougher issue. On the one hand, I'm not in any way willing to denigrate folks who are desperate enough to risk their lives like that (swimming in sewar water, trapsing through the desert, etc.). On the other hand, I DO think that a sovereign nation has a right to protect its borders (from drug dealers, terrorists, criminals, etc.). In this day and age, we really ned to know who's coming into the country.
As for welfare, I was FOR welfare reform and, yes, supported President Clinton in his efforts regarding this......Some people do milk the system (with unemployment compensation, too). Others clearly do not. It's probably best not to generalize in this regard.
For the record Will,the post Worf attributed to me was a total fabrication,was'nt written by me.
Just goes to show what a crackpot
he is.
That guy is close to being up on a water tower with a gun.
Read his postings at LC,hes there talking to himself under three different names.
And he has been banned on Kos and Huff.
Rustyridesagain said...
For the record Will,the post Worf attributed to me was a total fabrication,was'nt written by me.
Just goes to show what a crackpot
he is.
March 31, 2010 4:10 PM
Ummm crusty the post IS yours check the blogger number at the top of the link when you check who the blogger ID is,
Both the racist post at Lydia's blog, , and the one where "you lie" here, claiming you didn't write it have the same exact ID number
Check them.
Hint: click on crusty's name and look at the number in the headline link, I did it for you all here;
07542939496226150263
Check the post at Lydia's if you still do not believe me;
Notice the numbers?
They are the same (until crusty deletes one of them)
Which means either more then one person camn sign in under yhour sock puppet,
Or as usual you lie.
Which also means;
Willy your buddy is lying to your face on your blog.
Sorry broken link, here is the fixed version;
07542939496226150263
But the number is the same number crusty has used at Lydia's blog. Voltron's blog and here, for 2 years.
Want to explain the LIE crusty?
Dont have to explain anything to you Worf. I did'nt write that...your a sick,insecure,middle aged man who in order to make himself feel adequate is compelled to try and bring others down to his level of self loathing.
Your idiotic gotcha postings at LC is whats driven everyone but you from that blog.Well, that and your 5 or 6 tearful farewell (only to return in a couple months) rants.
Nope,I did'nt write that and yes you are a liar,but I must have some liberal blood in my viens
because I do in fact feel a bit sorry for you.You sir are a sad case indeed.
Sorry crusty, but the ID numbers says:
YOU LIE
Either more than one person can sign in under your blogger sock puppet ID, or YOU wrote it.
Spin it, screech all you want, but numbers do not lie.
The post and the claim that you didn't write the post have the exact same ID number.
Worf,it really does'nt matter to anyone what you have to say.No one pays any attention to you.No one wants to play "gotcha" with you.
Everyone here has seen you do that to Will over at LC.What you dont seem to understand is people are laughing at you.You come across as a petulant child,my god man everyone see's it but you.
Nice spin,
Now how about explaining the lie you told Willy, crusty.
Cause numbers do not lie, like you have crusty
It didn't sound like Rusty. This, in that I've never before seen him write anything THAT over the top; the "darky" comment, especially......I really wish that we could ALL (me, myself , and I included) just be more measured here.
Sorry Willy, ID numbers do not lie, either crusty admits he and only he has access to his handle and wrote it;
Or he admits more than one person has access.
And BTW he has written worse, just against people you seem to despise.
BTW Willy, you have joined crusty at times in his slandering of people, but you don't want to admit that one, right Willy?
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