Sunday, August 3, 2008
Sometimes You Can Hate a Little TOO Much
There's been an awful lot written on the Internet of late about President Bush's grandfather, Prescott Bush/his supposed ties to the Nazi regime of the '30s and even after the war in Europe started. It is pointed out, specifically, that the elder Bush was on the board of directors of Union Banking Corp., a company that did a lot of business with a fellow by the name of Fritz Thyssen, a prominent German businessman with Nazi ties. It is also pointed out that Bush, in addition to being on the board of directors of Union Banking Corp., was also a prominent shareholder of the company - a company that also did business with a Polish-owned entity that supposedly operated what eventually became Auschwitz. Wow, it all sounds pretty incriminating, huh?......................................Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on one's level of political fanaticism), there are at least a spate of problems associated with this accusation. One, Fritz Thyssen (Prescott Bush's co-villain in this sordid tale) broke with Hitler in 1938 (allegedly in response to Hitler's Kristallnacht program) - well before the invasion of Poland/the discovery of Hitler's "final solution". Two, there is no evidence that Prescott Bush had anything to do with Thyssen's political work in Germany. If Bush was guilty of anything, it was wanting too badly to make a buck. Three, Bush owned but one (yeah, that's right, one) share of Union Banking Corp. stock. Compare that to Averill Harriman (friend of Roosevelt, assistant to Truman), who owned 4,000 shares. Four, the operations of the Polish company associated with Auschwitz were actually stolen by the Nazis in 1939, well before the Auschwitz concentration-camp program existed. And, finally, while, yes, it must be pointed out that the Union Banking Corp. in fact DID do business with the Nazis, so, too, did Ford, General Motors, Standard Oil, DuPont, and many other companies. Damned if it wasn't a common practice, in other words..........................................Look, folks, did Prescott Bush (along with all the other companies mentioned) perhaps show some bad judgement here; putting profit over principle, etc? Yeah, probably. But in the words of liberal commentator, Joe Conason, "Henry Ford was a Nazi collaborator. Joseph P. Kennedy Sr. was a Nazi sympathizer. Unless additional information emerges to indict him, Prescott Bush Sr. was neither. To misuse such terms for political advantage against his grandson is to trivialize very grave offenses.....Imputing Nazi sympathies to the President or his family ought to be beneath his adversaries."..........................................Addendum. After his business career was over, Prescott Bush went on to serve two terms in the United States Senate. He was a liberal Eisenhower/Rockefeller Republican whose record was actually one that today's "progressives" ought to (apart from their partisanship, that is) see as admirable. He was an early advocate of public housing. He was one of the earliest supporter of the United Negro College Fund. He consistently championed such causes as Planned Parenthood. He was a staunch opponent of McCarthyism. And, yes, he was largely mistrusted by the conservatives and was denigrated by them regularly.........................................And that's part of the whole irony here, folks. It wasn't the liberals of the world who started this whole Nazi-Bush smear-job. It was the conservatives! Sensing that George H.W. Bush had at least a decent shot at the Presidency, the right, in an effort to halt this momentum (and, yes, remembering the liberalism of the father) came forth with this connect-the-dots/sins-of-the-father strategy. Talk about coming full-circle with some strange bed-fellows, huh?........................................And, finally, if we're going to tar-and-feather everybody with the last name of Bush, what's next - denigrating everybody with the last name of Kennedy, DuPont, or Harriman, boycotting Ford and G.M. FOREVER? I don't know, folks, that sounds like something that just might be beneath us all.
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56 comments:
Hi Will!,
Interesting reading. I just figured it went without saying that they were using circumstantial evidence to justify their hatred of Bush.
If you're still up for a little investigative reporting, I have a mission for you....LOL
I found myself reading an article about the progressive hero FDR and came across this:
FDR Scandal Page
As a rank partisan myself, I agree with it...LOL
Wondering what your take would be?
As a person who tries to be a nonpartisan, I'll probably agree with 50% of it. LOL I do kind of straddle the fence, don't I? I'll check it out. Reagan and FDR, though - criticizing either one of those two can get you enemies in a hurry. Beware!
Was just reading an item about Patton.
He seems to agree about FDR, at least as far as him giving everything to the commies during and after the war...
Will said " If Bush was guilty of anything, it was wanting too badly to make a buck. Three, Bush owned but one (yeah, that's right, one) share of Union Banking Corp. stock. Compare that to Averill Harriman (friend of Roosevelt, assistant to Truman), who owned 4,000 shares. Four, the operations of the Polish company associated with Auschwitz were actually stolen by the Nazis in 1939, well before the Auschwitz concentration-camp program existed. And, finally, while, yes, it must be pointed out that the Union Banking Corp. in fact DID do business with the Nazis, so, too, did Ford, General Motors, Standard Oil, DuPont, and many other companies. Damned if it wasn't a common practice, in other words..........................................Look, folks, did Prescott Bush (along with all the other companies mentioned) perhaps show some bad judgement here; putting profit over principle,"
So lets see here your using the typical repug argument that......well it aint really that bad because other people did it too.
So lets see here Bill O, committing treason to line your pockets REALLY isnt that bad because other rich robber barons did it too.........so i guess Foley molesting children REALLY isnt THAT BAD because a democrat allegedly did it ONCE too..........or Saddam gasing his own people REALLY isnt that bad because Hitler did it once right?......or profiting from building and funding the concentration camps isnt that bad because it was others that actually used them.........so i guess funneling money to Bin Laden and Al Qaeda really isnt that bad to make a buck as long as someone else does the actual killing?
Bush was trading with the enemy and financing Nazi industry and thus military might once we were at war with them and our soldiers were being killed because of the support the Nazi military machine received he had his assets seized for trading with the enemy.............so are YOU saying committing treason and trading with the enemy is OK?????
If rich bankers and the wealthy elite were funneling Money to Al Qaeda after we were at war with them and they murdered our countrymen, would that be ok in YOUR BOOK???
As for Prescoot Bush owing less shares than Harriman.......are you saying thats ok or not that bad..............so by YOUR twisted flawed logic if you only murder one person or rob one bank as opposed to 4000 its not really that bad right..........we should just let the person keep his money and ride off into the sunset and call it a day right?
This ones WEAK even from You Bill O'Reilly!
Mike he also didn't include that Prescott Bush was a DIRECTOR of said bank, which means he KNEW they were breaking the law with their traitorous activity, BUT instead of being patriotic and RESIGN in protest of the aid to the enemy the bank was giving, he chose MONEY over country.
Typical right wing action.
He was on the board of directors, along with other people. So, why aren't you vilifying the Kennedy famlty, the Harriman family (the guy owns 4,000 shares and DOESN'T know what the company was doing?)? Bought anything from Ford or G.M. lately? Joe Conason, JOE FRIGGING CONASON, thinks that this is crap. What, you don't have enough ammo against President Bush? You gotta get in the weeds with this crappola? Pathetic.
He didn't commit treason, you idiot. They weren't officially our enemy then. By the time we were involved in the European theatre, all of those companies were out of there. Your metaphors are preposterous. Doing business with a thug isn't the same as gassing people, for Christ. And in the 30s the extent of Hitler's brutality wasn't known, nor could it have been predicted. We do business with China now, LOTS OF BUSINESS. Are you saying that that is acting in principle. You guys hate Bush so much, you'll basically assert anything.
Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...
He was on the board of directors, along with other people. So, why aren't you vilifying the Kennedy famlty, the Harriman family (the guy owns 4,000 shares and DOESN'T know what the company was doing?)? Bought anything from Ford or G.M. lately? Joe Conason, JOE FRIGGING CONASON, thinks that this is crap. What, you don't have enough ammo against President Bush? You gotta get in the weeds with this crappola? Pathetic."
Your disdain for facts is truly astounding........ever consider thats why NO ONE reads your blog anymore......it didnt take Utah Savage long to figure you out and realize what your all about.
As for why I am not villifying the "KENNEDY FAMILY".................first of all i can critiize whoever i want you ARENT trying to dictate who i can criticize or comment on are you becauuse that would be REALLY hippocritical, since you whine like a little bitch when anyone calls you for defending McSame.
Secondly YOU NEED to start dealing in FACTS and not dishonestly ASSIGNING your opponents positions like a slimball partisan troll would.........See theres a big difference between the "KENNEDY FAMILY" committing treason and trading with the enemy and supporting the Nazi's and JOE KENNEDY doing that. thats kinda like the difference between a repug Senator Molesting children (Foley) and Senate republicans molesting children..........are we learning yet Bill?.............and like i said before dont "ASSIGN " me positions if you wanna know my position ask me.........if Joe Kennedy supported the Nazi's then he should have been charged with trading with the enemy and treason and had his assets seized if found guilty as well.......right is right and wrong is wrong it doesnt matter who did it or what their political affiliation is.
I like how you are "INFERRING" Harriman didnt know what was going on..........got any facts to back this up Bill.........."IF" and thats a riddiculous and very unlikely IF Harriman didnt know what was going on with his company then he is an incompetent idiot to stupid to be running a company but that doesnt change the fact he is still responsible for what his company does whether he KNOWS about it or not.
No Bill I have not bought a damn thing from GM or Ford ever.
As for "AMMO" against GWB..........your being dishonest AGAIN...........i NEVER even mentioned GWB in this thread, i was talking about Prescott and what he did...............I know its HARD for a man of your limited intelligence to stick to the facts and not lie and assign others dishonest strawman positions........but try harder........maybe you should get some help for that ADHD so you can pay better attention.
See it wasnt ME getting into the weeds to smear GWB.......it was YOU getting into the weeds to smear me with lies.
Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...
He didn't commit treason, you idiot. They weren't officially our enemy then. By the time we were involved in the European theatre, all of those companies were out of there."
BS he did committ treason and he most certainly was trading with the enemy and supporting the Nazi military industrial complex AFTER we were at war with them........and THATS why he had his assets seized..........you arent trying to claim that the US gov just seizes prominent, and powerful business peoples assets willy nilly with no proof are you?
In fact come to think of it YOUR the one that didnt provide a shred of proof to back up what you say......not a single link, not multiple corroborating articles just a slimy little intellectually lazy punk who loathes facts and gets caught lying, misrepresents and spinning half truths repeatedly.
Will said " Your metaphors are preposterous. Doing business with a thug isn't the same as gassing people, for Christ."
Oh right so according to YOU the greedy bastards that fund, support and bankroll the terrorists arent that bad its only the ones flying airplanes into buildings that are bad.
According to you the guys that bankrolled the nazis and built the concentration camps were a bunch of good ole boys who did nothing wrong.
According to YOU the rich billionaire drug lords who dont actually shoot people themselves or sell drugs to little kids who overdose arent that bad they are just business men trying to make a buck.
Will said "And in the 30s the extent of Hitler's brutality wasn't known, nor could it have been predicted."
Thats right Hitler just didnt start killing mass amounts of people and committing genocide early in the game.........what he DID do early in the game was giving the people a common enemy to hate and fear and using false flag phony patriotism and nationalism to scare the people into giving away more and more freedoms and liberties and changing laws to give himself more and more unfettered powers as well as cementing his power by putting blindly loyal partisan stooges in positions of power.........the demagoggery, repeating of lies over and over, fear mongering, war mongering, rabid phoney nationalism and patriotism, giving the masses a common enemy to fear and hate and the use of a war of choice to push his self serving agenda is the very same thing Bush and the Neo Cons have done.
Like I said Bill..........i dont use the term Reich Wing lightly the tactics the Neo Cons have used are theEXACT same ones Hitler used to seize power early in the game I studied Hitlers rise to power extensively in college and i had relatives who lived through it............I know a slimy false flag power grab when i see one and if you WERE REALLY a fair and balanced non partisan moderate like you claim so would you!
I find it interesting that YOU seem to be defending the Nazi enablers and the terrorist enablers............wonder what Volt would have to say about that?
Will said "You guys hate Bush so much, you'll basically assert anything."
There you go AGAIN with the false sweeping generalizations and straw man arguments........"you libs" You far left" "you rabid partisans".............can you EVER back up your idiotic riddiculous claims with facts.
I never hated Bush, i have hated his actions, lies incompetence, treasonous acts etc.....over the last 8 years but i never hated the man, hell i even considered voting for him in 2000, just like i did Gore but i voted for Nader instead.
I never voted for a dem until 2004 and then i oNLY voted for Kerry because it was a vote against that treasonous trainwreck of a president GWB.
You cry like a litle bitch about being labeled a repug or reich winger.............yet are quick to hippocritically demonize ANYONE who disagrees with or challenges you a far left winger or rabid partisan with out a shred of factual evidence to back up your claims.
You are an intellectually lazy lightweight who instead of challenging your opponents with facts in a honest debate you just throw a tantrum and start stamping your feet shrieking they are far left and a rabid partisan.
I've offered to debate you NUMEROUS times on the fact i'm not "a far left winger" or a rabid partisan'..........and like usual you weasel out of an honest challenge just like a slimy lying troll would because you KNOW the facts arent on your side.
1) I left a lot of facts in that post, loser. You just didn't like them. 2) I rarely have used the terms you say I've been using; "you libs", "you rabid partisans". You say you're not a liberal, fine. 3) I brought up the Kennedy family, ass-hole, to point out the idiocy of your selective outrage. 4) Your point on Averill Harriman is incoherent (much like the rest of the idiotic bile you consistently revel in). My point (please, read slowly) was that Harriman SHOULD HAVE KNOWN what his company was doing. Yeah, I'm talking Harriman, the same Harriman who was a special assistant to Truman. Where's the outrage toward that family. 5) Of course you're doing this to tarnish President Bush. You're trying to show some fascist lineage to him. You basically admitted so in your putrid justification for using that idiotic Nazi innuendo of yours. 6) You've accuse me of being a far-right-winger many more time than I've called you a partisan. So much for YOU sticking to the facts. 7)Comparing Bush to Hitler by any measure is ludicrous and anybody of even remotely normal intelligence/independence would find you disgusting for doing so. 8) You comparing ANYBODY to an intellectual lightweight is down-right comedic. You're the frigging lunatic who engages in the nastiness (making fun of McCain's piloting skills, for example) and who shamelessly and moronically hyperbolize everything. I mean, talk about some hard-core signs of a compromised intellect; a failure to see gradations, etc.. 9) The zazis built the concentration camps, Mike (a fact). Like I said before, the Nazis cofiscated that operation from the Poles in 1938 - before there was a frigging Auschwitz, pal. 1938, the same year that Thyssen broke from Hitler, left the country, and was later captured and imprisoned. The same Thyssen who there is no evidence Prescott Bush had any involvement with, politically. 10) The next time you use such a vile term as Reich-wing on this blog, the comment will be deleted. 11) My friends read my blog. That's all I care about, ass-hole. You and your lunatic-fringe buddies I could give a rat's ass about. How many times do I have to tell you that?
Looks like widdle willy got his panties in a twist again;
Hi all widdle willies imaginary internet friends.
I wonder why you all NEVER post at all?
Lets examine THE FACTS shall we Bill O..........you know those bothersome little details you seem to loathe.
Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...
1) I left a lot of facts in that post, loser. You just didn't like them."
REALLY you didnt cite your sources or back up your outrageous claims with a single fact........like i said lets examine you outrageous claims one by one shall we Bill?
Will said " 2) I rarely have used the terms you say I've been using; "you libs", "you rabid partisans". You say you're not a liberal, fine."
More outright lies from you are you capable of comprehending and understanding ANYTHING you read.........i've probably said 20 times now I NEVER said i'm NOT a liberal, i'm a combination of a liberal and a libertarian.........What i HAVE said NUMEROUS times is i'm NOT a Demacrat or a far left partisan.........something you keep dishonestly parroting over and over again like a lying troll without a single FACT to support your riddiculous arguments.
As for your playing wordsmith with the you libs or you rabid partisans although you have said therm you are correct your prefered form of dishonest smear seems to be Demacrat, far left partisan or Obama worshipper all categories i do not fall into either.
Will said "3) I brought up the Kennedy family, ass-hole, to point out the idiocy of your selective outrage."
More slimy unsubstaniated lies it appears............
1) that double standard and hippocrissy keeps rearing its ugly head Bill.........it seems you have no problem defending some of Bush's family from accusations of supporting Nazis financially.........yet have no problem whatsoever of not only accusing Joe Kennedy of SUPPORTING the Nazis rather than trying to appease and overlook the attrocities they were committing with out providing a single fact and link to support your claim.
Not to mention you accuse Joe Kennedy's ENTIRE FAMILY of supporting the Nazi's........from what I have seen it appears JOE Kennedy was an antisemitic isolationist that want to appease Hitler and the Nazis and aviod going to war with them but i see NO EVIDENCE he financially supported the Nazi's when we were at war with them..........HE wasnt the one who had his assets seized for trading with the enemy did he Bill?
I CHALLENGE YOU TO PROVE KENNEDY FINANCIALLY SUPPORTED THE NAZI"S WHEN WE WERE AT WAR WITH THEM LIKE PRESCOTT BUSH DID OR RETRACT THIS DISPICABLE SMEAR.
And for the record Bill if Kennedy is guilty of committing treason and supporting the Nazis when we were at war with them charge the treasonous bastard with treason and hang him just like any other traitor.
I'm not defending Kennedy i'm dealing in facts and just because some lying little blog troll that has a history of lying, misrepresenting and smearing CLAIMS something without backing up his claim with links and facts doesnt mean its not true.
How come YOU are so quick to smear not only JOE Kennedy but his ENTIRE family without backing up your claim with a single fact but work so franticly to defend the Bush family of the same thing despite all the evidence against him..........EVIDENCE which comes from the National Archives and the US Government................are you a Conspiracy loon trying to say the US Government and national archives constructed an elaborate plot to smear a prominent American business man and seize his assets with no evidence on a whim because one day his grandson might choose to run for president??
Better polish up your Tinfiol hat Billy
Will said " 4) Your point on Averill Harriman is incoherent (much like the rest of the idiotic bile you consistently revel in). My point (please, read slowly) was that Harriman SHOULD HAVE KNOWN what his company was doing. Yeah, I'm talking Harriman, the same Harriman who was a special assistant to Truman. Where's the outrage toward that family."
There you go AGAIN trying to assign me a position.............I NEVER said there was no outrage toward Harriman...........I think Harriman was guilty he should have hung for treason as well...........and Harriman SHOULD have known what his company was doing and my point was i'm sure he DID..............and whether he was an assistant to Truman is irrelevant if he;s guilty of treason he deserves to swing just like Prescott or anyone else.
You just dont get it do you i dont give a shit if a dem or a repug commits treason they BOTH should swing for it............If Clinton or Obama were doing the same things Bush and Cheney did i'd be saying the same things about those treasonous bastards.
Will said 5) Of course you're doing this to tarnish President Bush. You're trying to show some fascist lineage to him. You basically admitted so in your putrid justification for using that idiotic Nazi innuendo of yours."
I'm just looking at the facts objectively something YOU obviously REFUSE to do for some reason despite your CLAIM to be fair and balanced the facts are Bush DID have his assets seized for trading with the enemy after we were at war with them this is supported and corroborated by the National Archives, the BBC, the US Government and many other sources..........the word of a slimy liar with a total disdain for facts ranting on a blog that NO ONE reads without a single fact to back up his riddiculous CLAIMS doesnt hold much water to National Archives, the BBC, the US Government .
So BILL are you CLAIMING YOU BELIEVE IN AN ELABORATE TINFOIL HAT CONSPIRACY THEORY that the US GOVERNMENT, NATIONAL ARCHIVES and BBC WERE ALL IN ON TO FRAME BUSH SO THEY COULD SMEAR HIS GRANDSON ^% YEARS IN THE FUTURE?????????
Do some research Billy and you might actually LEARN SOMETHING
Bush
Was
A
Nazi
Supporter
will Said "6) You've accuse me of being a far-right-winger many more time than I've called you a partisan. So much for YOU sticking to the facts. "
Well when you REPEATEDLY and WILLFULLY........no pun intended deny facts and try to smear liberals while giving repugs free passes it looks like what it loks like.
Wanna say again why you defend BUSH when there is a ton of evidence from the US GOV and National archives much of which was recently declassified against him but NONE against Joe Kennedy much less his entire family like YOU OUTRAGEOUSLY CLAIMED..........i CHALLENGE YOU TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIM OR ADMIT YOU ARE A LIAR.
Will said "7)Comparing Bush to Hitler by any measure is ludicrous and anybody of even remotely normal intelligence/independence would find you disgusting for doing so. "
I NEVER compared Bush to Hitler outright...........what I DID DO was compare the tactics Bush and his treasonous Neo Con cronnies used to seize power, change laws dismantle the Constitution and the privacies, liberties and freedoms it protects, wage war and justify and sell their self serving agenda to the public.
This was the exact qote of what i said...."Thats right Hitler just didnt start killing mass amounts of people and committing genocide early in the game.........what he DID do early in the game was giving the people a common enemy to hate and fear and using false flag phony patriotism and nationalism to scare the people into giving away more and more freedoms and liberties and changing laws to give himself more and more unfettered powers as well as cementing his power by putting blindly loyal partisan stooges in positions of power.........the demagoggery, repeating of lies over and over, fear mongering, war mongering, rabid phoney nationalism and patriotism, giving the masses a common enemy to fear and hate and the use of a war of choice to push his self serving agenda is the very same thing Bush and the Neo Cons have done."
I'd be MORE THAN HAPPY TO DEBATE YOU ON ANY OF THE POINTS I MADE IN THE PREVIOUS PARAGRAPH..............do you think the Neo Cons, didnt:
1)give the people a common enemy to hate and fear
2)use false flag phony patriotism and nationalism to scare the people into giving away more and more freedoms and liberties
3)change laws to give himself more and more unfettered powers as well as cementing his power by putting blindly loyal partisan stooges in positions of power.
4) use demagogery to demonize the opposition
5) use fear mongering and war mongering to scare the masses into voting for his party and giving him whatever powers he demanded.
6)repeating lies over and over to deceive the simple minded and smear opponents
7)rabid phoney nationalism and patriotism
8)giving the masses a common enemy to fear and hate
9)the use of a war of choice to push his self serving agenda
Will said "8) You comparing ANYBODY to an intellectual lightweight is down-right comedic. You're the frigging lunatic who engages in the nastiness (making fun of McCain's piloting skills, "
REALLY BILL..........I believe its a PROVEN FACT that McSame got shot down on his first mission..........you REALLY NEED to learn the difference between posting factual evidence LIKE I DID about McSame getting shot down on his first mission and YOU posting unsubstantiated smears and BS about the "KENNEDY FAMILY" SUPPORTING the NAZI's.........that way you wont look so ignorant to your thousands of alleged friends and readers?
Will said " 9) The zazis built the concentration camps, Mike (a fact). Like I said before, the Nazis cofiscated that operation from the Poles in 1938 - before there was a frigging Auschwitz, pal. 1938, the same year that Thyssen broke from Hitler, left the country, and was later captured and imprisoned. The same Thyssen who there is no evidence Prescott Bush had any involvement with, politically."
Well i'm not sure what the zazies are Bill......but the Nazi's DID build concentration camps with the Money Prescott Bush, Harriman et al bankrolled and supported them with............and dont pull the bait and switch on me it doesnt matter if the Nazis turned on Thysen because they had no more use for him Bush, harriman et al CONTINUED to support them financially AFTER we were at war with the Nazi's THAT IS A PROVEN FACT, supported by the National Archives, classified gov documents, and a government investigation that resulted in his assets being seized for TRADING WITH THE ENEMY..........i dont think the government seizes peoples assets lightly or there was some elaborate tinfoil hat conspiracy against the Bushes...........so unless YOU somehow DISPROVE all the strong evidence against Bush...........it looks like YOU are a slimy liar.
BTW I think the US GOVERNMENT, National Archives and BBC have alot more credibility and carry alot more weight than a dishonest blogger with a total disdain for facts caught NUMEROUS times in lies, half truths and unsubstantiated smears and spin, and who has a blog that NO ONE values enough to even read.
Will said "11) My friends read my blog. That's all I care about, ass-hole. You and your lunatic-fringe buddies I could give a rat's ass about. How many times do I have to tell you that?"
There you go AGAIN with the tall tales and unsubstantiated claims..........prove to me you have friends or anyone reads your blog besides me and the few others who i would hardly call your friends.
Does John McSame really want to be known as a;
fiscal conservative?
McCain was shot down on his 23rd mission in Vietnam, Mike. So, what you said there was a lie. He had 2 other crashes that weren't related to combat. My friends at work read my blog, Mike, professional people; doctors, nurses, social workers, therapist - normal people who actually have lives. They either read it off the computer when I send the link to them or I make copies and bring them to work. It makes for good discussion and, yes, they admire my independence/unwillingness to kiss any politician's ass. As for the rest of these ludicrous accusations and ASSertions, I'll deal with them later.
Will said "8) You comparing ANYBODY to an intellectual lightweight is down-right comedic. You're the frigging lunatic who engages in the nastiness (making fun of McCain's piloting skills,.............
Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...
McCain was shot down on his 23rd mission in Vietnam, Mike. So, what you said there was a lie. He had 2 other crashes that weren't related to combat."
HMMMMMM..........lets see now the man was involved in incidents that lost 5 aircraft........THATS RIGHT 5........he crashed 3 aircraft, had one blown up by a rocket and was shot down in Vietnam..........I THINK THE FACTS SPEAK VOLUMES ABOUT HIS PILOTING SKILLS OR LACK THEROF!!!
As For me lying.......I made a mistake.........unlike YOU I admit my mistakes, i probably heard something to the effect that this was the first aircraft he lost in a combat mission and mistakely thought it was his first mission.......but regardless the ACTUAL facts look much worse than what i mistakenly said........its only a lie WILL if you dont ADMIT you were wrong and made a mistake.......something i have NEVER heard you do.
BTW WILL..............YOU stated he ONLY had 2 other crashes when the truth is he had three other crashes, plus had his plane blown up by a rocket..........SO WERE YOU LYING OR JUST MISTAKEN AS USUAL?????????
Will said"As for the rest of these ludicrous accusations and ASSertions, I'll deal with them later."
Ludicrous accusations?????
those are proven facts pal...........UNTIL YOU DISPROVE THEM WITH IRONCLAD FACTUAL EVIDENCE...........I WOULDNT BE CALLING THEM LUDICROUS.
FOR THE RECORD OTHER THAN THAT MISTAKE ABOVE YOU HAVENT REBUTTED OR DISPROVED ANY OF THE FACTS I HAVE POSTED THAT HAVE EXPOSED YOUR LIES and/or FLAWED LOGIC.
BTW Will..........I believe Patton said that in order to Win wars you need to shoot down the enemy and make the enemy POW's not get shot down or crash and become a POW yourself...............McSame KEEPS CLAIMING he and only he knows how to win wars and has all this mystical experience.............not so much aye Bill............5 PLANES is that a lot BILL.????????..................BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes, Mike, there's a lot of stuff on the Internet linking the Bush family to the Nazis. There's also a lot on U.F.O.s, ghosts, and conspiracies related to the Kennedy assassination. This, I'm saying, in that, no, there isn't a gate-keeper (what do you call it, oh yeah, a moderator - "I'll be your moderator, Tomcat, ugh huh, ugh huh). Look, I never said that Union Banking Corp, Harriman Banking Corp, and all the other U.S. businesses involved in Germany (there were literally thousands, Mike) was a good or noble thing. I admitted in the original post (which you evidently skimmed over) that there was poor judgement involved. My point of departure has to do with the over-the-top conclusions that certain people (yes, Mike, you amongst them) have been drawing. Please, permit me just a few points of perspective here. 1) Prescott Bush was on the board of directors, not amongst the management. It was the management of UBC that handled the day-to-day operations. These people were Harriman, Cornelis Lievense, and Harold Pennington. Does this absolve Bush completely? No, but let me continue. 2) 5,000 alien property vesting orders went out in 1942. Counting the employees of these companies would get you into the one million plus range. Maybe not all of them were up on Hitler's depravity but how do you decipher. Do you put them all on trial for treason? 3)The U.S. government mustn't have been too pissed at the actions of these companies, in that all of the share-holders were compensated (Bush got 1.5 million for his one share, Harriman 5 billion for his 3,997) and offered the holdings back after the war. What, are you saying that FDR and Truman were soft on Nazi collaborators? 4) The Anti-Defamation league is on record as saying, "Accusations of Prescott Bush's associations with the Nazi party are untenable and politically motivated. Prescott Bush was neither a Nazi or Nazi sympathizer (though, yes, he may have been a Zazi)." Yes, there's more, but I gotta get out of here.
I read 3 planes in total, Mike. Where did you read 5?
So, you're ragging on P.O.W.s now, Mike? Really, is there no limit with you?
Show me where I EVER ragged on POW's ...........i was merely addressing McSame's assertion that ONLY He knows how to win wars with a relevant quote from Patton..........are YOU saying a guy that crashed 3 planes and got shot down another time and made a POW knows MORE about winning wars than a general who ACTUALLY WON A WORLD WAR............just curious how many wars did McSAME WIN.
there you GO LYING AGAIN.........I NEVER SMEARED McSAME OR POW's I POSTED FACTS........you just loathe those facts dontcha.........they seem to get you every time.
stop being LAZY and do your research and you'll see that he lost a total of 5 planes and had 3 crashes not 2.
Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...
Voltron, I don't let stooges pick my friends for me. I thought that these guys didn't believe in guilt by association. They're the frigging hypocrites."
Theres that outrageous hippocrissy and double standard again...........so apparent YOU CLAIM to NOT believe in guilt by association yet time after time fall back on the trollish guily by association smearing when you CLAIM myself, cliff, JR, AP, Larry etc.......are Lydia's goons or thugs and are somehow acting on her orders or at her behest...........i'm just some dude posting on her blog just like i do on yours............i mean YOUR not smearing people on Voltron's orders are ya?????????????
So much for your "I dont believe in guilt by association hippocritical LIE!
And if you think that rambling incoherent post addresses all the facts i posted your a fool.......................YOU seem to spend a lot of time frantically defending Bush........yet had no problem smearing the Kennedy family without a shred of evidence to back up your claim.
Yeah you hate smears and swiftboating tell another one Pinnochio!
You say your here for debate and lively discussion..........i raised some very valid issues...........how bout you address them or i'll keep asking them till you do..........you are here for honest fact based discussion right?
Like I said When I"M wrong I admit it........i've NEVER heard you admit you were wrong........now when most people refuse to admit they are wrong they are usually lying..........thees no shame in admitting when you are wrong unless of course your wrong ALL THE TIME!
I don't care who you hang around with, Mike. There's enough about you and you alone to despise completely. I'll let people read that comment about McCain and his POW status and have them decide for themselves whether it was fair or not. To me, it was way over the line. What am I wrong about, Mike? Give me some specifics and maybe I'll surprise you with some magnanimity. No, I don't believe in guilt by association. That's why I never slammed Obama for any of his associations. Why not give me credit for that, Mike? You know, insted of vilifying me for criticizing him on 2-3 foreign policy issues. You mguys are so frigging thin-skinned.
I go out of my way to defend President Bush? Mike, are you out of your frigging mind? I have written dozens and dozens of postings (my ramblings and incoherence aside) that have been merciless on President Bush/his foreign policy. I've written dozens and dozens more that have been critical of his minions in the media. I just fall a little short of calling him a Nazi (Zazi - you liked that one, huh?), that's all. I like to leave that bullet in my holster until I really need it. I didn't even use it back in '91 against frigging Saddam, for Christ!
As for the Kennedy comment, Mike, I included that to show how certain people engage in selective outrage. Personally, I don't care what Joe McCarthy Sr. did in the 30s (yes, Mike, he WAS a Nazi sympathizer, that's why Roosevelt fired him). And I'm not using it to "smear" his family. Bobby Kennedy was a hero of mine, Mike. I think he was one of the best Attorney Generals ever; the way he went after the mob and all. Bottom-line, I don't believe the sins of the father.
Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...
I don't care who you hang around with, Mike. There's enough about you and you alone to despise completely. I'll let people read that comment about McCain and his POW status and have them decide for themselves whether it was fair or not. To me, it was way over the line. "
REALLY Bill O..............I posted facts about McSame, I didnt attack or smear him personally............its a proven documented fact that McSame lost 5 airplanes, he crashed 3, he got shot down once in Vietnam and had another one blown up by a rocket...........and secondly I didnt say that about in order to win wars you gotta make the enemy POW"S not become one yourself..........that was George Patton who said that a guy that actually WON A WAR.........if YOU want to argue that a c guy who lost 5 airplanes and became a POW knows more about winning wars than a decorated general who ACTUALLY won a war be my guest ..........but thats a losing argument because the facts are against you.................YOU JUST LOATHE THOSE FACTS DONT YA BILLY
Will said "What am I wrong about, Mike? Give me some specifics and maybe I'll surprise you with some magnanimity. No, I don't believe in guilt by association."..............
Theres that hippocritical double standard again BillO............you used the GUILT BY ASSOCIATION crap with Lydia CLAIMING we were her "minions" or "thugs" and were attacking you on "her orders"..........the truth is i'm just some schmoe that postson her blog just like i do on yours.
Then you smeared the entire Keddedy FAmily for something Joe Kennnedy was guilty of.........you said the "Kennedy Family"........supported not appeased the Nazi's............more guilt by association you CLAIM you dont do.
Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...
As for the Kennedy comment, Mike, I included that to show how certain people engage in selective outrage. Personally, I don't care what Joe McCarthy Sr. did in the 30s (yes, Mike, he WAS a Nazi sympathizer, that's why Roosevelt fired him). And I'm not using it to "smear" his family."
It seems its YOU who engage in selective outrage..........and once again we were NOT talking about Joe McCarthy slick we were talking about Joe Kennedy...........and the truth is I Never said he wasnt a Nazi sympathizer or defended him for it............and YOU MOST CERTAINLY DID say the KENNEDY FAMILY SUPPORTED THE NAZIS NOT JOE KENNEDY WAS A NAZI SYMPATHIZER..........
Mike, I said I'm NOT doing it to smear his (Kennedy's) family. Read, it, bro, it's a couple of comments above yours. And YOU SAID that the accusation against Joe Kennedy was a smear by me. Do you realize now that it's a historical fact? And, really, of all the thousands and thousands of people with possible Nazi ties during that time period, you bring up Prescott Bush. Now THAT is illuminating, too.
If I ever said that you were acting on Lydia's behalf, that was wrong and I apologize.
You guys do seem to operate like a pack of wolves, though. Probably a male-bonding thing. And, come on, Mike, you do have a crush on her, right (me, I kind of liked the willowy brunette better)?
"So, why aren't you vilifying the Kennedy family, the Harriman family?" That was the "Kennedy family" thing you're referring to. Great way to take out of context, Mike. My point was NOT that the Kennedy family SHOULD be vilified. My point was that, since you seemed to be tarring the Bushes with this stuff, why stop there? Why not go after some Democrats, too. Hell, even FDR, he was close buddies with Harriman. Maybe we need to hang him for treason, too. P.S. This is irony Mike. I actually don't think we should hang any of them. I'm just showing you how crazy this game can get if you start losing your perspective. That's all. Comprehendo?
Will apparently the full name you see listed was in my cache and got posted by accident......its not me, its my cousin who recently used my computer.......would you mind deleting the name and reposting the post so there is no personal info out there.
Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...
If I ever said that you were acting on Lydia's behalf, that was wrong and I apologize."
Well that sounds reasonable, maybe there is room for some intelligent reasonable discussion with you.
Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...
Mike, I said I'm NOT doing it to smear his (Kennedy's) family. Read, it, bro, it's a couple of comments above yours. And YOU SAID that the accusation against Joe Kennedy was a smear by me. Do you realize now that it's a historical fact? And, really, of all the thousands and thousands of people with possible Nazi ties during that time period, you bring up Prescott Bush. Now THAT is illuminating, too."
The accusation that JOE was FINANCIALLY supporting the Nazi's was a smear as was the accusation that his family were either supporters or sympathizers.
I never challenged the implication that JOE KENNEDY was a Nazi Appeaser and/or sympathizer.
no prisoners" Hart said...
"So, why aren't you vilifying the Kennedy family, the Harriman family?" That was the "Kennedy family" thing you're referring to. Great way to take out of context, Mike. My point was NOT that the Kennedy family SHOULD be vilified. My point was that, since you seemed to be tarring the Bushes with this stuff, why stop there?"
I didnt villify Kennedy because
1) we were originally discussing Bush and how the taqctics he has used to seize power justify and inniate war, dismantle Constiutional freedoms, liberties, privacies and protections, smear oppenents, manipulate elections or votes, fear mongering, war mongering phony nationalism and patriotism etc...was the very same tactics as the Nazi's used.
We THEN transitioned into how his grandfather actually FINANCIALLY supported the Nazi's...........Kennedy didnt financially support the Nazi's and to be honest how is Kennedy just supposed to pop into my head..........if you had wanted to discuss Kennedy I would have given you my honest opinion of him and said he was a rotten SOB too as I did.
But for the record I have harshly critized MANY democrats including Obama on MANY issues.......particularly Pelosi, Hoyer, Reed, Clinton etc.......
Mike, I never said that Joe Kennedy (or the Kennedy family) was financially supporting the Nazis, just that he was a Nazi sympathizer who embarrased his country abroad, to the point where FDR had to can him. As to why I said "Kennedy family", I was trying to point out that if in fact you're going to go after the sins on the father (in Bush's case, the grandfather) in one family, you have to be consistent (aka, bipartisan) in doing so. I don't believe in the sins of the father, period. Didn't you read my post, "The Pervasive Nature of Skeletons"? I tried to make that clear.
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