Wednesday, August 22, 2012

On the Progressives' Preoccupation with the Minimum Wage and Their Always Wanting to Increase it 2

A small businessman who could stand to use some help in his stockroom, who can't afford to pay the minimum-wage but who could afford to pay a local 18 year-old high-school senior $5-6 an hour and can't BECAUSE OF THE MINIMUM WAGE - to say that that probably honest and hard-working individual is a "poor businessman" using a "bad business model" is absolutely disgusting. And the fact that we're hearing it from individuals who know absolutely NOTHING about business, too. That to me makes it even more nauseating.


The Heathen Republican said...

I was recently told that but for a minimum wage, these sad workers wouldn't be able to afford to go to the doctor, pay rent, or pay their electric bills. Why do you hate the poor, Will?

Of course you know I agree. We probably don't agree across the board on the minimum wage, but how progressives can believe that raising the cost of labor above the market price has no real-world consequences baffles me. We don't accept price floors on milk, eggs, gas, or water, so why would we create one for a commodity like labor?

w-dervish said...

Will: ...who could afford to pay a local 18 year-old high-school senior $5-6 an hour and can't BECAUSE OF THE MINIMUM WAGE...


From the US Dept. of Labor website: What minimum wage exceptions apply to full-time students? [answer] The Full-time Student Program... allows the student to be paid not less than 85% of the minimum wage. The certificate also limits the hours that the student may work to 8 hours in a day and no more than 20 hours a week when school is in session and 40 hours when school is out, and requires the employer to follow all child labor laws. [end]

BB-Idaho said...

Guess I'm one of those nauseating
individuals that know nothing of
business; however, it would seem
the owner might hire the kid as a
tipped worker ...
in my state that category can be
paid as low as $3.35 an hour if they make more than $30 a month in
tips. Work the kid 15 hours a week
at $3.35 for a month = $216.08-
add a $30 tip at the end of the month = $246.08. You got 64.5 hours of shelf stocking for $3.81
an hour. (actually that is about
how much I made stocking shelves,
filling orders, unloading boxcars and sweeping floors when I worked my way though college...although that was in the late fifties)
[and college was $127.75 a semester!!]

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

"Any worker who earns regular tips (specified as earning at least $30 in tips a month by the FLSA) is eligible for a special minimum wage rate. Employers are permitted to pay tipped employees an hourly cash wage of as little as $2.13/hr- however, if this wage and the tips earned during that hour do not add up to at least the applicable minimum wage, the employer must make up the difference in cash. Thus, tipped employees are guaranteed to earn at least minimum wage, and can earn more then minimum wage in tips."......It sounds like you maybe got ripped off, BB Idaho. According to the department of Labor, it all has to add up to the minimum wage or the employer is in violation.

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said... - the complete list of exemptions regarding minimum wage and overtime.

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

85% of $7.25 is $6.16. So, no, not false on what I said about hiring him for $5-6 an hour. And what if the kid is a dropout? Yeah, you've got 90 days to pay him less but what if can't afford to up it after those 90 days? Playing games with the economy is a dangerous thing, wd.

w-dervish said...

False that minimum wage has to be paid. And the owner is a poor businessman with a poor business model if 16 cents an hour is going to break him. Also false is your laughable claim that the minimum wage is "playing games with the economy".

What's dangerous is when gullible dupes buy into Conservative class warfare BS and argue in favor of paying American workers substandard wages.

Rusty Shackelford said...

Fuck it.....lets just give anyone 18 to 24 $50,000 per year,what ever they are doing.....flipping burgers,you get 50 grr,working mid-night shift at Circle get 50,000....anything,give em 50grr a year.

If they dont want a regular job,but want to stay home and play Black Ops.....they get $20,000....but only for four years.

Yea,these poor folks have been suffering enough.....lets make like easy for them.

So what if a Mickey D's burger ends up costing 6 bucks,these folks deserve a decent life...we owe it to them.

dmarks said...

WD said: "What's dangerous is when gullible dupes buy into Conservative class warfare BS and argue in favor of paying American workers substandard wages."

"Substandard" is your extremely arrogant and completely ignorant judgement... in cases where the wage happens to be the fair value. If it is the actual fair market value of the work, then it is "Standard", not substandard.

And who knows that this value is? It is something worked out by the worker and employer. They are the only ones who have any idea on this. Not you, not me, and certainly not "bureacratic intellectuals".

dmarks said...

Rusty said: "So what if a Mickey D's burger ends up costing 6 bucks,these folks deserve a decent life...we owe it to them."

You highlight the extreme stupidity of all such minimum wage laws: they force small business owners to become welfare agencies, handing out unearned money as a gift to people.

And unlike any decent welfare program, it isn't means tested at all. So the small business is giving the same massive handout to the 18 yr old son of a rich manager as they are to a needy single mom.

In fact, most of these handouts don't go to the needy.

It's no wonder that minimum wage laws have created out of necessity a sort of black market of labor where illegal aliens fly under the radar. This happens where WD and those brilliant bureaucratic intellectuals make it a crime to pay someone the fair value of their work.

The Heathen Republican said...

WD: "...argue in favor of paying American workers substandard wages."

I see dmarks already addressed this, but WD you're substituting your judgment for that of the market. Who are you to determine what is substandard? What are your qualifications?

If we decide to let an individual set a price (like wages), haven't we descended into authoritarianism again? Aren't you the one advocating for it?

And what happens when a democratic socialist (like you desire) isn't in charge and Republicans get to substitute their judgment for the markets? You certainly won't go along then.

Rusty: "So what if a Mickey D's burger ends up costing 6 bucks, these folks deserve a decent life... we owe it to them."

I recently posted on this very subject if you're interested: A Dialog on the Living Wage and Economic Reality.

Gorges Smythe said...

What most folks don't realize is that government mandates (taxes and such) raise the employer's cost of a minimum wage worker to about double what that worker grosses.

dmarks said...

Gorges; And these government programs are actually incentives for companies not to hire, or fire people.

It is no wonder that many employers hire illegal aliens under the table since the government has outlawed paying workers a fair wage.

If paying people fair compensation is outlawed, why not just hire outlaws?

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

wd's hyperbole is in total overdrive here. a) 97% of the American public makes more than the minimum wage. b) Most people working for the minimum wage are either young people, retirees, or second wage earners (I'm in my 50s and I have yet to meet an actual bread-winner making minimum wage). c) Nearly 50% of black male teens are unemployed (so, how's that minimum wage working for them?). d) That 85% threshold doesn't apply to kids NOT in school and the other exemption only lasts for 90 days.......To structure this debate in such an anachronistic, faux revolutionary, and hackneyed manner is totally counterproductive, IMO.