Thursday, December 1, 2011
On George W. Bush and War Criminality 2
1) There was no territorial gain.............2) There was no subjugation. Deposing the worst mass-murder since Pol Pot, dismantling his Republican Guard, and allowing for free and fair elections is subjugation only in the minds of people who hate George W. Bush (and who evidently don't know the difference between interference and subjugation).............3) A case could be made for self-defense. Is it a case that I personally would have made? No. I was against the toppling Hussein because I feared a possible civil war and the fact that we still needed him as a counterbalance to Iran. But I wasn't President.............4) I'm still waiting to hear the precise U.N. resolution which has approved of the sextupling of drone attacks in Northern Pakistan by President Obama and why, if in fact there isn't one, HE isn't a war criminal, too (the fact that there have been thousands of civilian casualties, etc.).............5) The U.N. is a rump organization comprised of, in no small measure, miscreant nations/dictatorships. To cite them as the sole determinant of what constitutes war criminality is something that I reject. I mean, really, where were they when Saddam was gassing the Kurds, and where are they now with all of the atrocities happening in Syria (Assad is making Gadaffi look like a damn piker)?............6) I'm assuming that, if in fact Mr. Bush ever WAS indicted for war crimes, the fellow would also get a fair trial (I mean, they gave one to Adolph Eichmann, right?). OR, is he already considered guilty by a bevy of marginal bloggers and a spate of ivory tower intellectuals? I'm curious.............7) Referencing what Bush did in 2003 (even assuming the most cynical of motivations) with what Hitler did in 1939 is an extremely discomforting comparison and I....Well, I'll just leave it at that.............8) And let's just assume that what Mr. Bush did WAS a war crime, is there not in this area of law a continuum, too? Just as you wouldn't compare a person convicted of vehicular homicide to John Wayne Gacy, you probably wouldn't compare Bush to Hitler, Pol Pot, Hussein, D'Aubuisson, Amin, the Hamids, etc., either. I mean, I certainly wouldn't.............9) Regime change in Iraq, as one of the stated objectives of American foreign policy, didn't originate with George Bush. It originated with Bill Clinton in 1998 and was also affirmed in Congress via the Iraqi Liberation Act of 1998 (this, in response to Saddam having kicked out the weapons inspectors). Clinton, not Bush.............10) The Authorization for the Use of Force Bill that passed both houses of Congress in 2002 had 23 whereas clauses justifying the war. Only TWO of them in any way dealt with WMD. Two.............11) The yellow cake and aluminum tubes arguments were never mentioned in either the U.S. Use of Force Bill OR the U.N. Council ultimatum 1441. And they weren't even part of the intelligence report that the Congress saw. They were only used to persuade the U.N. (yes, that in fact WAS a bad thing).............12) Every major intelligence agency in the world; the British, the French, the Russians, the Germans, the Israelis, the Jordanians, etc., thought that Iraq had WMD. Yes, they were wrong but they were ALL wrong.............13) If Bush was so gung-ho about going to war in Iraq, then why did he a) wait a full three months after the ultimatum (U.N. resolution 1441) expired before engaging and b) give Mr. Hussein an 11th hour ultimatum to "leave the country or face war". Hussein could have readily left for Russia and Aziz taken over and war would have been avoided.............14) Yes, the first Gulf War had a U.N. resolution authorizing force. But the only reason that it did was because China abstained, and the only reason that China abstained (as opposed to vetoing the measure, which is what they really wanted to do) was because they were feeling isolated after the Tiananmen Square massacre and didn't want to become even more isolated. Ergo, the first gulf war was almost a "war crime", too.............15) Congress was privy to the same intelligence that the White House was. This, via the N.I.E...............16) No evidence has ever been found of White Hose manipulation of the evidence. This from the 2004 Senate Intelligence Committee (unanimous); " The Committee did not find any evidence that intelligence analysts changed their judgments as a result of political pressure, altered or produced intelligence products to conform with Administration policy, or that anyone even attempted to coerce, influence or pressure analysts to do so. When asked whether analysts were pressured in any way to alter their assessments or make their judgments conform with Administration policies on Iraq’s WMD programs, not a single analyst answered “yes.”............17) And, this, from the bipartisan Silberman-Robb report of 2005; These (intelligence) errors stem from poor tradecraft and poor management. The Commission found no evidence of political pressure to influence the Intelligence Community's pre-war assessments of Iraq's weapons programs. As we discuss in detail in the body of our report, analysts universally asserted that in no instance did political pressure cause them to skew or alter any of their analytical judgments. We conclude that it was the paucity of intelligence and poor analytical tradecraft, rather than political pressure, that produced the inaccurate pre-war intelligence assessments. 18) In spite of all this, I still think that the Iraq War was a stupid and shortsighted enterprise that could have and should have been avoided.............19) P.S. Just to be fair here, while it's clear that there wasn't any manipulation of the evidence/Congress, a case COULD in fact be made that the administration manipulated the public. There was a lot of doubt in that N.I.E. and none of it was forwarded to the public or the media. Now, whether this fact constitutes a war crime or not, that I might be willing to concede (though, yes, it would also incriminate the Congress).
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29 comments:
1, Yes there was territorial gain even if ONLY FOR ONE YEAR, remeber the Coalition Provisional Authority, where L Paul Bremer NOT the Iraqi people RAN IRAQ? You know where he made them rewrite their constitution to fit OUR demands before we gave sovereignty back to them?
Kinda also fits the legal definition of; Subjugation don'tcha think?
2. Subjugation was removal of the internationally recognized leader of the country, destruction of its military and forcing our view of government on them which we did do, with Bremer and the numerous elections we put them through. Election which BTW we not the Iraqi people decided who could run in the first two.
3 No it could NOT if you are HONEST with the facts.
4. Irrelevant to Iraq, nice try at another diversion from the facts of Bush's war crimes in Iraq.
5. Your partisan personal opinion of the UN has no bearing on legal facts will, but nice to see your in lockstep with the right wing fringe on this one also. This comment is also irrelevant to the issue of the war crime.
6. Yes I hope the legal procedures follow legal principles, unlike the actions of Bush and his administration about Iraq circa 2002-2003 into an illegal war.
7. The levels of Hitlers criminality compared to bush's doesn't change the facts of the case, and I did not just say Hitler will, nice attempt at changing my WHOLE comment.
8. Nice attempt at obscuration. Your attempting to conflate Hitler with Gacy, and Bush with an accident, where the real comparison would be Gacy=Hitler, Bush=John McRae -- Michigan/Florida, (look it up).
9. Clinton did NOT commit a war crime here, Bush did, try to keep the facts straight, and quit looking for excuses for Bush actions and your OPEN DEFENSE of them.
10. Too bad the UN has a mandate which forbids Bush's actions Even if congress gave a weak toast Authorization for the Use of Force Bill. Hint Germany just because Bush has congress's approval for something not very well defined, doesn't mean Bush can illegally attack Iraq and commit war crimes.
The UN Charter prohibits any war unless it is out of self-defense or when it is sanctioned by the UN security council. If these requirements are not met international law describes it a war of aggression. The AUMF does not meet those standards.
11, Both were in Powell's speech to the UN during the debate, but this comment is also irrelevant to the issue of the war crime.
12. So what, this comment is also irrelevant to the issue of the war crime.
13. This comment is also irrelevant to the issue of the war crime. Three months will, that the bets ya got?
Try remembering how hard they worked Turkey to get a northern attack route, probably part of the delay REMEMBRER?
14. More "sand" from will, totally irrelevant to the war crimes of Bush vis a vis Iraq 2002-2003 and his illegal invasion.
15. Irrelevant will nice "Scooter Libby" impersonation though.
16. Also irrelevant, damn you hoping for a job from Cheney?
17. see above.
18 and totally illegal thus a war crime.
19. see above.
Will you work very hard to justify your opinion instead of accepting the facts from this thread;
On George W. Bush and War Criminality 1
But your position is still without much LEGAL merit.
Will: if in fact there isn't one, HE isn't a war criminal, too?
Drones aren't the same as an invasion/regime change. The Pakistani government approved the use of drones in their territory in exchange for aid. Why do you think we're sending them billions of dollars?
I'm not saying I approve, but I don't think a comparison can be made between this and bush's war crimes.
Will: The U.N. is a rump organization comprised of, in no small measure...
Typical Conservative UN bashing. The UN is democracy among nations. It's far from perfect but it's the fairest way there is to determine such things.
Will: To cite them as the sole determinant of what constitutes war criminality is something that I reject.
Of course you do, you're a Conservative. Conservatives hate the UN... and believe the US should be able to act unilaterally and with impunity.
Will: Regime change in Iraq, as one of the stated objectives of American foreign policy, didn't originate with George Bush. [blah, blah, blah]
So what? Bill Clinton did not order the invasion of Iraq.
Will [citing the Silberman-Robb Report] ...found no evidence of political pressure to influence the Intelligence Community's pre-war assessments of Iraq's weapons programs...
No political pressure??! I don't buy that for a second.
The National Security Archive (An independent non-governmental research institute and library) reports that "a July 2002 draft of the White Paper ultimately issued by the CIA in October 2002 actually pre-dated the National Intelligence Estimate (regarding Iraq's WMD) that the paper purportedly summarized, but which Congress did not insist on until September 2002".
According to The National Security Archive this white paper proves "The U.S. intelligence community buckled... to Bush administration pressure for data justifying an invasion of Iraq".
Also, a 6/5/2003 article from the Washington Post says "Vice President Cheney and his most senior aide made multiple trips to the... to question analysts studying Iraq's weapons programs and alleged links to al Qaeda, creating an environment in which some analysts felt they were being pressured to make their assessments fit with the Bush administration's policy objectives... "
The findings of the Silberman-Robb Report are wrong.
"...where L Paul Bremer NOT the Iraqi people RAN IRAQ? You know where he made them rewrite their constitution to fit OUR demands before we gave sovereignty back to them?
Kinda also fits the legal definition of; Subjugation don'tcha think?
2. Subjugation was removal of the internationally recognized leader of the country, destruction of its military and forcing our view of government on them which we did do,...
Yada, yada, yada.
Didn't MacArthur write Japan's constitution FOR them?
My only question is when can we send in the missionaries?
No comment yet but I just have to follow this thread.
>
Didn't MacArthur write Japan's constitution FOR them?
Ummm yes Voltron, after we defeated the Japanese in a war in response to the attack on Pearl Harbor. You know one of the justifiable reasons to declare war.
Nice attempt at further obscuration, like will has tried.
1) Your definition of territorial gain as to include provisional authority after the war is laughable and not what the framers of the argument meant, I'm positive.............2)Removal of the biggest mass murderer since Pol Polt and allowing for ultimate Democratic rule, while it may in fact been utopian and short-sighted, is "subjugation only in the mind of hard-cores.............3) The Congress saw the same intelligence information that the President saw (factcheck.org verifies this) and a shitload of Democrats mindlessly gave Mr. Bush a blank check to get rid of this guy. They, too, must have saw him as a threat, and probably justified the vote via the same defense argument. Reasonable people can differ (a concept that you obviously don't adhere to) here.
4) It's not irrelevant in that I'm still looking for some sort of a semblance of consistency from you. The U.N resolution for the sextupling of drne attacks in Pakistan - give it to me.............5) China doesn't veto = war crime. China does veto = war crime. That lazy, lazy, moral thinking, fellow.............6) I doubt that you'd be selected for the jury. You've already made up your mind.
I gotta get some dinner.
12) Not irrelevant in that, since Saddam had used WMD before, the fact that everybody thought that he still had them made it seem quite possible that he would in fact use them again. Me, if I were the President, I would have simply gone in and taken out the WMD (which we now know didn't exist), smacked Saddam around a little and left. But Bush, I totally concur, was an idiot.............13) I agree, he should have waited longer (and the enterprise itself far more focused). My only point here is that the "he rushed into war" argument isn't exactly accurate.............14) Not irrelevant in that it shows the absolute arbitrariness of basing the legality of a military action based solely on a vote from Russia or China.............15) Not irrelevant in that it shows how the Congress saw the same threat and ultimately agreed to play a part in this alleged war crime via their vote.............16-17) Not irrelevant in that both of these nonpartisan analyses blow to smithereens the now quite legendary myth that the Bush administration pressured the gatherers of information to somehow give them what they wanted. I mean, the whole accusation is ludicrous. Just look at the N.I.R., for Christ. It was loaded with doubt and STILL all of those automatons in Congress (FROM BOTH PARTIES!) voted for the authorization anyway.............18) There's got to be a choice somewhere between George Bush is a liberator and George Bush is war criminal. There's got to be.............19) I think that it (Bush's deception of the public) could have been an impeachable offense and, knowing what I know now, I just might have voted, yeay.
I'm siding with heathen, here. This thread is worth watching.
So, wd, if a country gives you permission to send in missiles to slaughter it's citizens IN EXCHANGE FOR MONEY, that ISN'T a war crime? Come on! If a Republican President had made an arrangement like that, you would be flat-out going ballistic, and you know it.
As for that Washington Post article, it says nothing. Cheney showed up, so what? Did any of these analysts actually say that anything was changed BECAUSE of this supposed pressure? It doesn't, does it?
Hey, 37927, if you shoot off 3 bullets and only one of them hits the fellow's chest, which of the bullets do you focus on?
Chakam/ecc102, and I don't even like Mr. Bush.
Will: Clinton advocated regime change. Regime change is a war crime. Clinton was advocating a war crime.
Way lame logic here. Clinton never, NEVER said that he favored regime change by invasion and without UN approval.
Also, there are other ways to accomplish regime change other than war. Obama supported regime change in Egypt. Mubarak is gone. We didn't invade.
Will: The Congress saw the same intelligence information that the President saw (factcheck.org verifies this).
That "intelligence information" was produced by the CIA after Dick Cheney leaned on them to arrive at the conclusions the administration wanted them to arrive at.
Will: ...the "Bush deceived the Congress" argument that factcheck.org has so thoroughly rejected.
FactCheck.org is wrong on that count.
Will: ...both of these nonpartisan analyses blow to smithereens the now quite legendary myth that the Bush administration pressured the gatherers of information to somehow give them what they wanted.
This isn't a "myth". It is exactly what happened (see the National Security Archive link in my previous post).
Why is comment moderation on?
WD finally getting to you Will?
In all frankness though, presidents won't be arrested for war crimes until we're invaded and conquered so let's not beat ourselves to death.
I'm with HR and ecc102 on this as well.
But really Will, is it fair {the word libs love} to confuse the left with logical analysis? I mean really. And with one hand tied behind your back nonetheless.
Could have swore I left a comment as well last night Will.
Sorry for the moderation, gentlemen. And, no, it's not at all because of wd. He seems like a harmless enough fellow. It's much more the other guy whose been creeping me out.
Hey, 37927, if you shoot off 3 bullets and only one of them hits the fellow's chest, which of the bullets do you focus on?
All Three since all three were illegally fired, however the one that actually HIT him swill cause the person firing the weapon the most legal trouble.
As for the comment moderation, that is just will trying to control everything again.
I guess will is creeped out when he cannot LOGICALLY defend his comments.
Again, with the personal shit. We can argue the legality (we evidently agree on the wisdom part - invading Iraq in fact WAS stupid) till the cows come home (the fact that a wretched regime like China can actually hold such a card). But when you throw around the Hitler analogy, you're more than likely gonna get called on it (and, yes, I've totally defended Mr. Obama regarding this, too).............As for the commenter moderation, a lot of bloggers use it; Sue, for instance. If you continue to provide cogent, noninflammatory points, we won't have a problem.
But when you throw around the Hitler analogy,
You left out the part about Russia into Afghanistan 1979, and Japan into China 1932.
AGAIN,
WHY?
They weren't as inflammatory. If I compared you to Joe Blow, Joe Sixpack, and David Duke, you'd probably take exception to the latter and ignore the rest, no?
"Deposing the worst mass-murder since Pol Pot"
I was just reading recently about how left-wing icon Noam Chomsky supported the Khmer Rouge genocide.
I'm surprised that he even acknowledges that there was a genocide. He seems to think that only white Europeans/capitalists are capable of evil.
If I compared you to Joe Blow, Joe Sixpack, and David Duke, you'd probably take exception to the latter and ignore the rest, no?
Only you would "feelings test" the facts will.
BTW the Afghanis or Chinese who suffered under the two different invasions just don't rate as high to you I guess. BTW the Japanese were at least as cruel and heartless to the Chinese peasants, as the Nazis ever were to their European victims, just not as well publicized by the western press.
According to Historian Chalmers Johnson;
It may be pointless to try to establish which World War Two Axis aggressor, Germany or Japan, was the more brutal to the peoples it victimised. The Germans killed six million Jews and 20 million Russians [i.e. Soviet citizens]; the Japanese slaughtered as many as 30 million Filipinos, Malays, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Indonesians and Burmese, at least 23 million of them ethnic Chinese. Both nations looted the countries they conquered on a monumental scale, though Japan plundered more, over a longer period, than the Nazis. Both conquerors enslaved millions and exploited them as forced labourers—and, in the case of the Japanese, as [forced] prostitutes for front-line troops. If you were a Nazi prisoner of war from Britain, America, Australia, New Zealand or Canada (but not Russia) you faced a 4% chance of not surviving the war; [by comparison] the death rate for Allied POWs held by the Japanese was nearly 30%
and will says;
They weren't as inflammatory.
According to the findings of the Tokyo Tribunal, the death rate among POWs from Asian countries, held by Japan was 27.1%.
The death rate of Chinese POWs was much higher because—under a directive ratified on August 5, 1937 by Emperor Hirohito—the constraints of international law on treatment of those prisoners was removed. Only 56 Chinese POWs were released after the surrender of Japan.
Of the MILLIONS of Chinese the Japanese captured ONLY 56 survived, but you think it wasn't as bad??????????????????
and will says;
They weren't as inflammatory.
After March 20, 1943, the Japanese Navy was under orders to execute all prisoners taken at sea.
Hitler NEVER issued such orders.
Wanna try a few facts?
Oh, and, why didn't you include Mussolini's invasion of Ethiopia, or Napolean's invasion of Syria? Didn't think of 'em, did you?
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