Monday, April 19, 2010
To Say and Not Do or Do and Screw Up, THAT Is the Question
The thing that bugs me most about Republicans is that a lot of them TALK a good game. They TALK about spending cuts. They TALK about balancing the budget. They TALK about eliminating earmarks. They TALK about a more humble foreign policy (well, at least Bush 2 did). They TALK about illegal immigration. They TALK about health-care reform (they actually have some decent ideas here). BUT when it comes to real governing and, yes, they actually have the opportunity to do a few of these things, they totally screw things up; wars, deficits, pork-barrel projects/spending, a porous border, etc., etc.. I mean, I know that the Democrats are screwing things up pretty bad, too (fuzzy thinking pertaining to health-care, the stimulus, cap and trade, etc.). But at least these characters are attempting to do what they said they would. So, yeah, in that regard at least, I'd have to give the Democrats a slight edge here - slight, clearly being the operant term.
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51 comments:
Will,
IMO there used to be a clear difference between the two parties. Dems wanting a welfare state (I mean that in a European sense-govt intervening for the public good) with working class/minorities/liberals as its base. Republicans wanting to dismantle the welfare state.
Republicans were the party of the small business owner as well as the business interests. since the Dems triangulated they moved away from their base. essentially the same now.
Oso, there is a gaping difference between the two parties. The Republicans are out to see that the warfare state squelches the welfare state. Drowns it in a bathtub. Big difference. Choose. Which side are you on?
I see Oso's point but I do tend to agree more with Vig here. I look back to Ike, Nixon, and Gerry Ford. None of those guys ever tried to dismantle anything. And, yes, now we have both parties (yes, the Republicans, especially) trying to appease their bases (moderates be damned). As for the warfare state versus the welfare state, I would personally like to monitor both of those constructs a little bit better.
What exactly is a welfare state?
Do you think america is a welfare state?
What countrys would you consider a welfare state?
You know what I find bit interesting? The MSM and leftwing kook blogs were all trying to tie Tim McVeigh and the Oklahoma City bombing to the Tea Party.
Do you think maybe they forgot McVeigh was retaliating for the Clinton/Reno Waco mess? I'm sure thats it....yea thats it they just forgot.
While I'm not as enamored of the tea partiers as you are, Russ (the fact that Beck, Bachman, and Palin are some of their leaders kind of turns me off), I do agree. The fact that these people are being stereotyped and vilified (being linked to Mr. McVeigh, especially) is extremely unfair.
Rusty forgot that it was the David Koresh - Branch-Davidian mess.
Vig makes a fair point. While Reno no doubt fumbled the matter at times, the real villain at Waco was the lunatic, David Koresh......Rusty, I'll be honest with you here. I don't think that Clinton was all that terrible a president. I didn't vote for him (I voted for Perot). But, in retrospect, he certainly ain't looking all that bad.
I'm not throwing a rock at Clinton.Just saying that trying to lump McVeigh in with the Tea Party
is just transparent politics.Its like the constant playing of the race card by the leftwing kooks.
There's a good article in the WSJ about how the dems have used the race card for the past 50 years in order to maintain the black vote and now,even with a black president who would'nt be in office without the white independent vote are still intent on making race an issue.Just saying,thats all.
Actually a BETTER way to frame the question, is between a citizen social welfare state, and a right wing corporate welfare state centered on the defense department and wall street. The republicans ever since Reagan lied to all of us in 1980, has been focused on creating their corporate welfare state, and have been quite successful if you look at the corporate welfare they hand out at defense, and how wall street always gets what they want.
Privatization of government always allows the corporate types to get far more then their fair share of the commons that actually belong to all of us, which is why they have pushed that flawed ideology ever since Reagan's time, doing the bidding of their corporate masters, Reagan's was GE for the longest time ... Bush's/Cheney the Oil Industry (including it's banking component) and of course for all four Wall street.
Corporate welfare has always dwarfed social welfare for individuals, but Reagan and the republicans have lied thru their teeth about it so long, they have made it into a sort of truthiness which few people question. Of course the corporate owned M plays the game tilting for wall street and corporations every time even though the right LIES and falsely claims the MSM is liberal, but a honest assessment shows it is not.
The case of the run up to the illegal war in Iraq proves that, very few in the corporate owned MSM did any real fact checking, and the supposed liberal NYT had Judith miller being the principle propagandist Cheney and rove used for their lies and dis-info campaign about Iraq in 2002-2004
Sorry but the PRO-WAR cheer leading MSM was NOT liberal at all during Bush's debacle or when they worked very hard to undermine Clinton in the 1990's. Nor were they very liberal or inquiring while the lies of the republicans and their hate speech specialists spread the dis-info during the health care debate.
But crusty and the rest of the right wing will still dishonestly spread that talking point.
A very decent summation...
Its interesting that Will and Vig,both doves who would like to see all our troops home yesterday and dont want them over there killing those pesky talibans.Yet neither have a problem with american troops in tanks sporting flame throwers blitzkrieging onto private land shooting and torching american men,women and children.Yep,it was Koresh's fault,no doubt about it.Lets extend an open hand to Muslim fanatic's who would behead either one of you in the name of Allah,but instead of waiting them out lets go kill our fellow citizens.Hell, they are no better then Randy Weavers wife.
The thing is, Russ, I don't really consider myself all that much of a "dove". If we really had unimpeachable evidence of WMD in Iraq, I would have had absolutely no problem going in there and blasting it to smithereens. I wouldn't have even minded cuffing Hussein's regime around a little bit. My major problem was with the occupation/nation-building. The fact that we took Mr. Hussein out, while it may have looked good on a cursory glance, all it really did was strengthen the Iranians and create a Shia crescent all the way to Saudi Arabia.....As for Waco, wasn't it the Davidians themselves who torched the place? Not that I necessarily want to defend Janet Reno, mind you.
In response to Mr. Anonymous, I agree. A lot of the Republicans totally ARE dirty - dirtier than dirt, for Christ! But, if you're asking me to unquestioningly hang my hat on the party of Charlie Rangel, Bill Jefferson, Rod Blogsonofabitch, Dan Rostenkowski, John Edwards, etc., I'm sorry, but I don't really see that happening, dude......If you're asking me if the defense budget is too big, yes, it's way too big. And I've felt that way for decades. In fact, that was one of the reasons why, as a young voter, I joined forces with the campus chaplain and supported John Anderson in 1980.
No Will,I believe the american troops were using incendiary weapons.
My point is'nt who did what to who but the hypocrisy of the leftwing kooks.They can justify our troops being ordered to kill fellow citizens but are horrified when the same troops are killing Muslim fanatics.
If memory serves I believe you were front and center about Obama's surge a few months ago but dismiss Clinton's part in Waco....do you for one minute really believe Janet Reno made that call on her own.Please.
I dont that its accidental that a recent pool shows 76% of americans distrust their own government.There enough shitheads on boths sides of the asile.
The left is making a huge error by dismissing Tea Party supporters off hand.If they dont for minute thing there is a growing anger against the government they are dead wrong.
If 76% of americans are unhappy with the government I'm guessing the 24% that are peachy keen with it are federal workers.
...As for Waco, wasn't it the Davidians themselves who torched the place...?
Mr. Hart, you have your history correct, Sir.
You're right, Russ. I'm not a big fan of Mr. Obama's surge. I just think that it's probably too late for that type of a "military" victory. I instead favor George Will's and (yes, I'll say it) Joe Biden's anti-terror approach (this, as opposed to Mr. Obama's counter-insurgency approach). I guess that you could call me more of a "containment" guy.
Yes, Vig, I do recall Mr. Koresh as being quite the madman. Not somebody that I would have wanted to negotiate with. That's for sure.
You miss my point.Leftwing kooks go absolutly apeshit if just one cilvilian gets killed during war but have no issue at all with their fellow americans bitting the bullet.....as long as its another lib giving the order to shoot.
I feel terrible that those people died, Russ. I'm just not entirely sure where the culpability lies. You seem very certain that it lies with the Clinton administration. Vig seems to think that it lies entirely with Mr. Koresh. I will have to investigate further, I think.
Will,I dont think Koresh called in the tanks.
Will, honestly if George Bush had ordered the troops,in tanks to attack fellow americans,what would they be shouting.Come on,be truthful.Do you notice none of the kooks are chiming in.
No crusty, Mr Koresh, helped set the incendiary devices they set off as the FBI was trying to take into custody the people who MURDERED federal ATF agents as they were serving a legal arrest warrant on David Koresh for illegal weapons.
Plus;
Approximately 76 Branch Davidians, 21 of whom were children, were killed in the ensuing blaze. Autopsies confirmed that many of the victims, including David Koresh, had died of single gunshot wounds to their heads. As I recall, no government agent fired a gun during this assault.
Sorry but somebody beside Janet Reno ran around the compound shooting people in the head while it was burning crusty. Hint probably the same people who set the fire in the first place, two of the three fires were started well inside the building.
Also Sen John Danforth was a special council who investigated the Waco incident and concluded;
The Special Counsel noted, that recorded interceptions of Davidian conversations included such statements as “David said we have to get the fuel on” and “So we light it first when they come in with the tank right ... right as they’re coming in.” Davidians who survived the fire acknowledged that other Davidians started the fire. FBI agents witnessed Davidians pouring fuel and igniting a fire, and noted these observations contemporaneously. Lab analysis found accelerants on the clothing of Davidians, and investigators found deliberately punctured fuel cans and a homemade torch at the site. Based on this evidence and testimony, the Special Counsel concluded that the fire was started by the Davidians.
So the Davidains not the FBI started the fires which killed so many, those not shot in the head in the bunker;
Autopsy records indicate that at least 20 Davidians were shot, including six children under the age of 14, and three-year-old Dayland Gent was stabbed in the chest.
If you want to cry like a baby over WACO include the whole truth.
David Koresh bought and possessed illegal weapons which were used by him and his followers to block his arrest.
He them refused to surrender, after the attack on ATF agents.
The fires started in places the tanks never went. Also the fires spread far too fast for the tear gas to have been the primary cause.
Funny you give a free pass to Koresh for blatant murder of federal officers doing their constitutionally mandated jobs, and seem to think people who flaunt the law should be coddled after murder.
You seem to agree with Tim McVeigh a little too much on Waco, blame the federal government instead of the criminals who broke the law then murdered federal agents to try to avoid responsibility for their actions.
PS crusty the whole Waco ATF sting ops against Koresh was set up under Bush Sr, May 1992 to be exact;
In May 1992, Chief Deputy Daniel Weyenberg of the McLennan County Sheriff's Department called the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) notifying that his office had been contacted by a local UPS representative. A UPS driver described a package that had broken open on delivery to the Branch Davidian residence, revealing firearms, inert grenade casings, and black powder. On June 9, 1992, a formal investigation was opened and a week later it was classified as sensitive, "thereby calling for a high degree of oversight" from both Houston and Headquarters
The original raid approved by Stephen Higgins, ATF head, appointed by Reagan, and the siege was run by the FBI, (the ones who actually called in the US Army) William Sessions, appointed by Reagan, head of the FBI. Stuart M. Gerson was acting AG during this time, his last day at DOJ was April 19th 1993.
BTW Bush Jr hired Stuart M. Gerson (for his transition team) so your right wing cry baby routine seems misdirected, because the person who approved much goes with out criticism by you, however someone you seem to hate, gets smeared.
Why is that, could it be because under Janet Reno;
The prosecution resulting in the conviction of 21 of the Montana Freemen after an 81 day armed standoff.
Capture and conviction of Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols for the Oklahoma City bombing.
Capture and conviction of those who conducted the 1993 World Trade Center bombing (resulting in life-sentences of Sheik Omar Abdel-Rahman and 4 conspirators)
Funny she got her criminals
Bush and Co didn't get bin Laden.
Nice slimy right wing attempt to blame Janet Reno for the actions of others.
The ATF raid approved by Stephen Higgins, a Reagan appointee was the primary cause of the standoff.
William Sessions ran the ops, so if you want to blame a government official who was actually responsible blame him, ... oh wait Reagan appointed him, ruins your normal lies and deception campaign doesn't it crusty.
PS Sessions was also FBI director while Ruby Ridge happened, (shooting a mother holding a baby?) ... but crusty doesn't cry like a baby over that one because it doesn't serve his political mission.
You leftwing pinkos are so damn predictable.You'd like to put blame on any underling in order to reflect the light off the person responsible for giving the order.
I meane come on....yes koresh was a bad guy shithead,he deserved to be locked up,tried and sentenced.You know like you want to do with Muslim fanatics.But,Koresh was a problem....he was'nt coming out.Now,how about cutting off his electricity...O.K.,we did that,O.K. then stop the Domino guy from going in there....done....how about Hop Sings resturant....O.K.their stopped also.Now Koresh has no power,no water,no food.I wonder how long they can last? Fuck it,no more waiting lets get some tanks and ride up the fuckin driveway.
Now you've got a couple .22 rifles and maybe a few pistols.....and holy shit there are friggin american tanks and american soldiers coming up your drive way.Shit...this is no time to panic,but fuck these are friggin tanks rolling up and ramming their cannons through the walls of our house....calm down dont panic.....its our brothers and sisters,yes their americans like us.Wait,wait they are shooting at us....they just killed two children.....they want to kill us all,why we're americans?
No anny,unlike you I could care less the party of the person responsible for the action,The problem I have is someone (weather right or left) ordering american troops to kill american citizens.
I dont screem like a baby when a cilvilian in Iraq gets killed by a drone or a hyper Marine.
But when the President of the United States orders troops in tanks to attack american men,women and children for whatever reason....yea,thats a friggin problem.
Rusty is bloviating again; Mr/Ms Anonymous, reality based, has his/her history clinically accurate.
I suppose that "we" could have negotiated a little bit longer, attempted a few more of these alternative strategies. But, I don't know, Russ - 51 days, innocent children being held by a madman, copious amounts of illegal weaponry, murdered ATF agents.....Yeah, the tanks may have been a little bit of an overkill but.....
Sorry Willy, but the tanks were necessary, to approach a compound where US federal agents had been murdered while legally serving a warrant for the arrest of David Koresh,
The Branch Davidians were firing at the tanks all day until the fire the Branch Davidians started consumed the compound.
Funny when Muslims kill Americans the right wing wants to kill them all ... nuke them if you will .... but when right wingers committed murder, the right wing closes ranks and defends murders, (like they do the murderer of Dr Tiller).
Interesting bit of hipocrissy from the right wing ... but to be expected.
PS Willy they actually were technically not tanks, but CEV's "engineer vehicles" with armor protection against small arms and .50 cal fire.
Basically an armored up bulldozer.
Right again and again, and again! I watched the whole thing on TV. The only thing the tanks pumped in was tear gas and it was like through a hose. Also perfect on the hypocrisy of the Reich wing.
And, I thought it was 55 days....
(Anonymous, if you email me, I will respond!)
Anonymous does this ALL THE TIME. He takes what is essentially a fair and balanced statement and jumps like a cat onto whatever pittly little phrase he can in order to play gotcha. I've already said that Koresh was in fact the real villain here. I've also pointed out that it WAS the Davidians who apparently started the fire. And just in this last statement, I admitted that 51 (or 55, whatever) days was probably enough. And, please, read the statement again; "the tanks MAY have been a little bit of an overkill BUT... I was only suggesting that MAYBE (it's not a dirty word, Clif/Bart) the symbolism/imagery of this type of an approach could be harmful. You know, like the symbolism of GITMO (which I do believe Vig supports).
Oh, Vig, Mr. Anonymous (if he's who I think he is) is definitely NOT going to like the fact that you've been criticizing President Obama's Afghan strategy. President Obama can do absolutely no wrong in his eye.
Willy, I wasn't "jumping on you" but trying to explain why the armored engineer vehicles were needed, which destroys crusty's talking point.
Too bad you take such things so personally Willy.
Yeah, Willie, your ears are too large. Rusty was the poster-boy target.
Please Gentlemen, call me Will.
Too bad you take such things so personally Willy.
You can call him anything you want because you're ANONYMOUS. But I'll call him Will. Still, I'll leave 'take no prisoners' out because he takes in a lot of prisoners.
And I shall remain anonymous until Willy guesses right.
So far EPIC FAIL on his, voltron and crusty's part.
Well,well we finally have a winner in the Moron Derby.
Yes,its anonymous as he stupily tries to compare american forces killing fellow american men,women and children to some friggin lunatic smoking Tiller the baby killers ass.
Yea sparky....thats similar.
Yo douche bag, murder is murder.
PS David Koresh and his lunatic fringe band of criminals committed murder, so did the killer of Dr Tiller, so the comparison of criminals who committed murder is apropos.
The people who died in the compound at Waco were shot and stabbed from their fellow lunatic fringe criminal element. David Koresh had a bullet in his head, most likely oput there by his right hand man, Steve Schneider. The Danforth Report concluded that the adults who died of gunshot wounds at Waco on April 19th, shot themselves after shooting the children. They could have submitted to the rule of law like the rest of us in the US must do, but for some reason you insane right wingers want special exceptions for your lunatic fringes. They chose to refuse to submit to the rule of law after murdering Us federal agents, and must accept responsibility for what happened to themselves and the children they put in harms way with their illegal actions.
Sorry crusty but you and your lunatic fringe are the winners of the morons derby, and have been for years.
I heard 'em! The Church said, "AMEN!
Yep,you sure are correct sparky a killer is a killer.Tiller certainly did his share.How many third trimester viable babies did he kill? I'd guess at least 100 times the victims Koresh had chalked up.I know,I know he was performing a leagal services.Well, now hes doing it in hell.
What about Randy Weavers wife getting popped by a federal agent,I'm guessing that was the same as Tiller the baby killer.
Sorry but Dr Tiller never committed MURDER, David Koresh and his followers did, the concept you seem to fail to grasp.
But then again you lie so easily don't ya crusty.
I guess its what you code pink girls consider murder is'nt it sparky.
Tiller is still as dead as Koresh.Dead is dead sparky.
Sorry but murder is illegal even if you celebrate some who committed murder for stupid idealogical reasons like Koresh, McVeigh and Dr Tiller's killer did.
Settled history.
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